Remember our 'discussion' of Hebraic and Grecian Jews the other day (concerning the distribution of food to widows)? Well, here again we see this group of Grecian Jews. They 'debated' with Paul, as Scripture says. And then they tried to kill him. I really wonder what was said that made these Hellenistic people so angry. I realize they distrusted Saul, as did most of all Jews at that time, but at least some others were beginning to believe in his motives. But not so these Jewish people who came originally from Greece (a BEAUTIFUL place by the way, if you ever get to go there.....their fish dishes are out of this world). No, they continued to hate him. Imagine, someone calling themselves Christians (or at that time, members of 'The Way'), hating someone enough to try (not only want) to kill someone.
Saul was going about Jerusalem proving that Jesus was the Christ, that He was the Son of God. So, WHAT happened as he was debating with the Grecian Jews? Were they NOT believing this fact? No, I think they did. Then what do you all think was debated, and how did that debate go? Was it Saul's past? Was it his message? Was it other things he had 'learned' from Jesus?
I guess what we can take from this is that we are a lot like these Greeks. Before we can accept anything as truth, we must be shown or explained WHY it is the truth. Imagine if, all of sudden, Osama Bin Laden came out of his cave and claimed that Jesus had appeared to him and he was now going about the US proclaiming that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. How much trust would you have with this man? I am sure you don't HATE him, nor want to kill him (although you may want to see him punished for his past actions). So, probably I could better relate to the distrust of these Jews. It would take considerable time and proof of Bin Laden's sincerety, wouldn't it. BUT, wouldn't that be GREAT????????? Reply to this
April 9, 2009 8:16 AM
Rich wrote:
I often wish that God would talk to me like he talked to Saul. I wish that some great event would occur (flash of light from heaven) and then I would actually hear God's voice. But is this what really happened? I mean, if you or I were one of the soldiers with Saul, what would we have seen? All we read is that: "The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone."
What sound did they hear? Did they hear God's voice? Of the loud noise from the flash that struck Saul? Did they even see the flash? If so, why were they not blinded? Of did they just see Saul fall down? Was the sound they heard an actual voice or just some mumbling?
Luke wrote the book of Acts. He got the story from Paul, I believe. Luke was not there and I doubt Luke interviewed any of these soldiers. So what we read if Paul's account of what happened.
I am wondering if in fact all of us get hit by flashes and/or "hear" God's voice, but in our mind instead of something everyone else can see. I have had times of "revelation" and I have had insights into specific issues in my life that may have just come from me or may have come from God. Perhaps those times are God knocking me down and talking to me! Maybe I really have had many "Saul" moments in my life. Perhaps what it takes to "see" God is faith that what you are seeing/hearing is actually God! From his later life we know that Paul was a man who deeply loved God. His heart, even when he was riding along the road as Saul, must have been open to God. He had to be receptive to see God in what happened. Otherwise, I think he could have just written it all off. He just stumbled (or if he was riding a horse, it stumbled and he fell off), he bumped his head which made him temporarily blind, and maybe he had a brief concussion and thought he heard voices - maybe those voices were actually the soldiers talking to him while he was semi-conscious.
Or maybe, we accept BY FAITH (the same faith that Paul had) that it happened as described here and maybe we accept BY FAITH that things like this do in fact happen to us all the time (if we CHOOSE to accept them as being from God). Reply to this
April 9, 2009 9:00 AM
Sam wrote:
You know how HARD it is to take all that is written in the Bible on FAITH? I know man. I read history. I am a tiny bit familiar with church history. It is extremely difficult for me to take everything written in the letters and stories and writings compiled into our 66-'book' Bible as the exact truth and representation of what happened.
I DO have to rely on faith, however, (and also because) that the general teachings of Jesus were accurate as far as salvation. BUT, when I do even that, I get very concerned. Jesus talks about the narrow gate, the people He didn't know yet who preached in His name, and how hard it is for the rich to enter Heaven. Oh yes, I get concerned. Faith, Grace, Salvation...SO hard to comprehend the exact truth. All I can do is HOPE. Reply to this
April 9, 2009 11:44 AM
rik wrote:
I know a man who was a atheist before he became a disciple. He tells very few people what happened to him because they do not believe it. he was in his shower and something(later recognized as God) forced him to his knees and spoke directly to him. I can not remember any other details of his story, but my point is it is still possible/probable that God can do this to get someones attention. Reply to this
April 9, 2009 8:17 AM
Johnbob wrote:
Awesome stories. Anyone can change, and anyone can be forgiven. Even murderers (remember King David). As Rick did a good job mentioning yesterday, we can't forget about grace.
But nor can we forget about repentance - Saul/Paul's repentance was real and radical. I was trying to remember the last time I said - "I am struggling with X, and I repent." I turn around and go the other way. In looking back, I have repented of some things, but it has been a slow and gradual repentance. Maybe this is a topic that I need to think about a bit more. Reply to this
April 9, 2009 11:08 AM
Rich wrote:
Along the lines of what Mac says above (i.e., extremely difficult to take everything written in the letters and stories and writings compiled into our 66-'book' Bible as the exact truth and representation of what happened), I wonder if Paul's repentance was as radical as presented in the Bible or if in fact it was gradual as well. Just think of how little we really know about Paul's life. We have a few pages in the Bible that describe 40+ years of this guys life. The book of Acts covers most of his life in only a handful of chapters. I am not saying that Paul did not repent or did not change. However, I wonder if some/much of his change was also not gradual over time. He did SEEM to radically change from persecuting Christians to supporting them and becoming a leader, however, that did not in fact happen overnight. As I understand it took Paul some time to develop into the leader he became. Again, I am not taking anything away from Paul. I can not carry a candle compared to him. However, maybe slow and gradual is not as uncommon as we think.
Consider a teenager (most of us have one or had one and all of us were one at one time). Tell them all you can about how to NOT make mistakes and about all that seems to do is encourage them to try exactly what you tell them not to do. They have to experience for themselves to learn. I recently had a conversation with a friend about a close acquaintance. The friend told me that my acquaintance, being a very intelligent person, must come to their own conclusions to change. No matter how much I tell this person what I think is right, this person will ignore me. However, if they come to the conclusion on their own, they will change - and change in a permanent way. Perhaps we are all just teenagers in God's eyes. Fortunately his patience with us is much greater and longer than my patience with my teen! Reply to this
April 9, 2009 1:50 PM
Sam wrote:
The lesson you 'learned' from your friend is the staple of leadership counselling. The decision to change is ALWAYS the counsellee, not the counselor. Good leadership comes from being able to listen, listen, listen, and then provide sound 'advice', not instruction. And, better leadership is developed when the advice is not heeded, that the counsellor now approaches the situation a little differently, but again, listens, listens, listens to the person, and NEVER say "I told ya so!". If a leader can demonstrate his/her own failure at the same thing being counselled about, and the lessons he or she learned, the impact is much better. To counsel by claiming to know it all and to 'brag' about never having done the same thing(s), is not only wrong, but can have dire consequences.
Teenagers need more love than babies from parents. Their minds are active; their bodies are out of control with new hormone development; their peers put pressures on them we can only IMAGINE to have experienced (and if we did, it was SO long ago, we forgot all about that); and/but, their futures are in THEIR hands as well as yours.
I pray you pray about your son. Have confidence. Teach 'quietly'. Love him. And most importantly, LISTEN. Reply to this
Have you ever read the 'story' I wrote about Saul? If you would like a 'possible' look at the event in this chapter (and the previous), go to these links for parts 1 and 2 of Saul's story, from HIS view!
http://www.macisirish.com/QuietTimes/SaulsAccountOfStephen.htm
and
http://www.macisirish.com/QuietTimes/TheNextDay.htm
Copy-paste each into your browsers.
IF you read them, I would be honored.
Anyway, back to TODAY.
Remember our 'discussion' of Hebraic and Grecian Jews the other day (concerning the distribution of food to widows)? Well, here again we see this group of Grecian Jews. They 'debated' with Paul, as Scripture says. And then they tried to kill him. I really wonder what was said that made these Hellenistic people so angry. I realize they distrusted Saul, as did most of all Jews at that time, but at least some others were beginning to believe in his motives. But not so these Jewish people who came originally from Greece (a BEAUTIFUL place by the way, if you ever get to go there.....their fish dishes are out of this world). No, they continued to hate him. Imagine, someone calling themselves Christians (or at that time, members of 'The Way'), hating someone enough to try (not only want) to kill someone.
Saul was going about Jerusalem proving that Jesus was the Christ, that He was the Son of God. So, WHAT happened as he was debating with the Grecian Jews? Were they NOT believing this fact? No, I think they did. Then what do you all think was debated, and how did that debate go? Was it Saul's past? Was it his message? Was it other things he had 'learned' from Jesus?
I guess what we can take from this is that we are a lot like these Greeks. Before we can accept anything as truth, we must be shown or explained WHY it is the truth. Imagine if, all of sudden, Osama Bin Laden came out of his cave and claimed that Jesus had appeared to him and he was now going about the US proclaiming that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. How much trust would you have with this man? I am sure you don't HATE him, nor want to kill him (although you may want to see him punished for his past actions). So, probably I could better relate to the distrust of these Jews. It would take considerable time and proof of Bin Laden's sincerety, wouldn't it. BUT, wouldn't that be GREAT?????????
Reply to this
I often wish that God would talk to me like he talked to Saul. I wish that some great event would occur (flash of light from heaven) and then I would actually hear God's voice. But is this what really happened? I mean, if you or I were one of the soldiers with Saul, what would we have seen? All we read is that: "The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone."
What sound did they hear? Did they hear God's voice? Of the loud noise from the flash that struck Saul? Did they even see the flash? If so, why were they not blinded? Of did they just see Saul fall down? Was the sound they heard an actual voice or just some mumbling?
Luke wrote the book of Acts. He got the story from Paul, I believe. Luke was not there and I doubt Luke interviewed any of these soldiers. So what we read if Paul's account of what happened.
I am wondering if in fact all of us get hit by flashes and/or "hear" God's voice, but in our mind instead of something everyone else can see. I have had times of "revelation" and I have had insights into specific issues in my life that may have just come from me or may have come from God. Perhaps those times are God knocking me down and talking to me! Maybe I really have had many "Saul" moments in my life. Perhaps what it takes to "see" God is faith that what you are seeing/hearing is actually God! From his later life we know that Paul was a man who deeply loved God. His heart, even when he was riding along the road as Saul, must have been open to God. He had to be receptive to see God in what happened. Otherwise, I think he could have just written it all off. He just stumbled (or if he was riding a horse, it stumbled and he fell off), he bumped his head which made him temporarily blind, and maybe he had a brief concussion and thought he heard voices - maybe those voices were actually the soldiers talking to him while he was semi-conscious.
Or maybe, we accept BY FAITH (the same faith that Paul had) that it happened as described here and maybe we accept BY FAITH that things like this do in fact happen to us all the time (if we CHOOSE to accept them as being from God).
Reply to this
You know how HARD it is to take all that is written in the Bible on FAITH? I know man. I read history. I am a tiny bit familiar with church history. It is extremely difficult for me to take everything written in the letters and stories and writings compiled into our 66-'book' Bible as the exact truth and representation of what happened.
I DO have to rely on faith, however, (and also because) that the general teachings of Jesus were accurate as far as salvation. BUT, when I do even that, I get very concerned. Jesus talks about the narrow gate, the people He didn't know yet who preached in His name, and how hard it is for the rich to enter Heaven. Oh yes, I get concerned. Faith, Grace, Salvation...SO hard to comprehend the exact truth. All I can do is HOPE.
Reply to this
I know a man who was a atheist before he became a disciple. He tells very few people what happened to him because they do not believe it. he was in his shower and something(later recognized as God) forced him to his knees and spoke directly to him. I can not remember any other details of his story, but my point is it is still possible/probable that God can do this to get someones attention.
Reply to this
Awesome stories. Anyone can change, and anyone can be forgiven. Even murderers (remember King David). As Rick did a good job mentioning yesterday, we can't forget about grace.
But nor can we forget about repentance - Saul/Paul's repentance was real and radical. I was trying to remember the last time I said - "I am struggling with X, and I repent." I turn around and go the other way. In looking back, I have repented of some things, but it has been a slow and gradual repentance. Maybe this is a topic that I need to think about a bit more.
Reply to this
Along the lines of what Mac says above (i.e., extremely difficult to take everything written in the letters and stories and writings compiled into our 66-'book' Bible as the exact truth and representation of what happened), I wonder if Paul's repentance was as radical as presented in the Bible or if in fact it was gradual as well. Just think of how little we really know about Paul's life. We have a few pages in the Bible that describe 40+ years of this guys life. The book of Acts covers most of his life in only a handful of chapters. I am not saying that Paul did not repent or did not change. However, I wonder if some/much of his change was also not gradual over time. He did SEEM to radically change from persecuting Christians to supporting them and becoming a leader, however, that did not in fact happen overnight. As I understand it took Paul some time to develop into the leader he became. Again, I am not taking anything away from Paul. I can not carry a candle compared to him. However, maybe slow and gradual is not as uncommon as we think.
Consider a teenager (most of us have one or had one and all of us were one at one time). Tell them all you can about how to NOT make mistakes and about all that seems to do is encourage them to try exactly what you tell them not to do. They have to experience for themselves to learn. I recently had a conversation with a friend about a close acquaintance. The friend told me that my acquaintance, being a very intelligent person, must come to their own conclusions to change. No matter how much I tell this person what I think is right, this person will ignore me. However, if they come to the conclusion on their own, they will change - and change in a permanent way. Perhaps we are all just teenagers in God's eyes. Fortunately his patience with us is much greater and longer than my patience with my teen!
Reply to this
I would venture to guess he immediately stopped killing Christians.
Reply to this
The lesson you 'learned' from your friend is the staple of leadership counselling. The decision to change is ALWAYS the counsellee, not the counselor. Good leadership comes from being able to listen, listen, listen, and then provide sound 'advice', not instruction. And, better leadership is developed when the advice is not heeded, that the counsellor now approaches the situation a little differently, but again, listens, listens, listens to the person, and NEVER say "I told ya so!". If a leader can demonstrate his/her own failure at the same thing being counselled about, and the lessons he or she learned, the impact is much better. To counsel by claiming to know it all and to 'brag' about never having done the same thing(s), is not only wrong, but can have dire consequences.
Teenagers need more love than babies from parents. Their minds are active; their bodies are out of control with new hormone development; their peers put pressures on them we can only IMAGINE to have experienced (and if we did, it was SO long ago, we forgot all about that); and/but, their futures are in THEIR hands as well as yours.
I pray you pray about your son. Have confidence. Teach 'quietly'. Love him. And most importantly, LISTEN.
Reply to this
And that's my advice.
Reply to this