Lotsa and lotsa stuff in this chapter. Don't know were to begin. Maybe verse 18. Who was the man who owned the building with the 'upper room' in which Jesus and His disciples shared a meal, presumably His last one?
Obviously I have no answer to that question. I can guess the following: 1-It is someone Jesus knew, and probably known by the disciples. Even though "WE" aren't told who that was, the disciples must have been. "A certain man" could be one of thousands who owned homes in Jerusalem, so in order for the disciples to locate that home, they probably either knew him, or Jesus told them his name and the address. 2- Jesus must have already made previous arrangements with this man MANY months in advance. Supposedly around 3 million people attended the Passover Feasts in Jerusalem, so the 'chance' of finding any, let alone a large room, would have been nil....(remember the Olympics here in Atlanta). 3-We are not told if the disciples asked who and where, so we can assume once they were told who, either they knew where, or Jesus was then specific...I tend to assume they knew him. 4-Most of Jesus' followers were common men, but some of them could have owned such a large house (taxcollectors for example), but it is obvious that it was not one of 'the twelve' from these verses, so it could have been one of His other followers, outside the elect 12. WHO? No idea, but always fun to make guesses and see if any hypothesis is correct. Coulda been the father of John Mark. Could have been Mary's house (or her husband's). Coulda been any number of the people we have read about so far in this book. Any GUESSES?
Well, runnin' late...maybe more later as there is SO much in this chapter as I stated above. Reply to this
February 26, 2009 8:53 AM
rik wrote:
quite a lot in this lengthy chapter. To have Jesus call his betrayer out in front of everyone, it had to be awkward. I wonder what the others said to him or about him? Peter's confidence in not disowning Jesus was high, yet he did it any way. In reality we have all disowned Jesus at times in our life, we have all betrayed him one time or another. The question is did we own up to it and ask for forgiveness, have we forgiven ourselves? God isa gracious God, Jesus is a compassionate Lord. He knew what Judas was going to do and still called him friend. He forgave peter before peter even did the crime. We should, and for the most part are, be so grateful for God's grace. We would all perish without it. Reply to this
February 26, 2009 10:28 AM
Rich wrote:
Why did the chief priests and elders want to KILL Jesus? I understand that he insulted them and that he undermined their authority. I also understand that his followers were growing and theirs shrinking. But to KILL him? Maybe this involves a different culture.
But then again, I wonder if Jesus came to America today and if he did the same with regards to established religions, would the reaction be the same? Would the church leaders of our time want to KILL him? I don't know. Was Jesus really that offensive? Is true righteousness, is true sinlessness that offensive to the world? Perhaps it really is! If so, that poses a serious challenge to us. Why don't people today want to kill us? Why are 'Christians' seen as being "good" in today's world? Are we really being like Jesus or has the world changed in 2000 years? Is America really that different from the areas Jesus lived (and died) in? I believe the world is more sinful today! If so, then shouldn't we be more offensive to the world? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think they are worth at least considering!
As I read these passages (where Jesus talks of his death), I wonder how others around him felt. Was Jesus more reflective during this time? Was he more subdued? Did he appear depressed or less enthusiastic? He knew he was going to die in a couple of days. What would you be like if you knew you were going to die in 2 days? How would you be feeling? Who would you want to spend your time with? What topics would be foremost in your mind?
Jesus' trial has always amazed me. There is no credible evidence against Jesus and the charge is laughable! Have you ever made what might seem to others to be an outlandish statement? For example, have you ever said, "I just want to ring that guys neck?" Have you ever made a statement about your wife that could be interpreted as meaning that you wish she would just go away or maybe something similar with regards to your kids? Now consider being put on trial and those statements being used to accuse you. It would almost be laughable! But that is what happened to Jesus. Some comment "I am going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days" is the accusation against him. And because he said "it is as you say" about being the Christ, the son of God, he is sentenced to death! Completely unbelievable when you stop to think about it. Reply to this
February 26, 2009 1:27 PM
Sam wrote:
Good points, Rich (Hey, you and Richie coming Sat evening?)...but, look at the Muslim religion today. They want to kill poets and cartoonists for what they publish. You are not even allowed to name your kid after 'their messiah'. I know lots of people named Jesus. Now, done bashing that religion...let's try ours....but let's back up a few years to what is known as The Christian Crusades, or just "The Crusades". Although they were done mainly, I believe there were around 8 or so, to counter other peoples who had other religions (mainly Muslims) as the Christian Church (ROME) feared they'd overtake THEM, they embarked on these little field trips killing people throughout the ancient world, including 'innocent' women and children. VERY bloody. You might argue they were doing that in self defense, but Jesus was the epitomy of just the opposite...turn the other check, don't even respond to threats (as we see Him doing so here). Now, let's move into 'modern Christianity'. You want to know if the churches are any better or different from the religious leaders (Pharisees, Sadduces, Essenes, the Scribes and the Samaritans) of Jesus' day. Well, let's see. Do you recall any responses from Church leaders, great or small, after the great catastrophe of September 11, 2001 (yes, almost EIGHT years ago!!!)? I know, then President Bush, a 'Christian' called for their (all terrorists) heads. We ended up attacking a Muslim country, seemingly now, on extremely shaky grounds and incorrect evidence. Thousands have been killed. I know this is a touchy subject, because most Christians probably fealt, initially, the same way. But is that right?....most certainly not. Justice, maybe. MAYBE an eye for an eye type of thing, but probably not. There are REASONS their are idiots out there fighting for their own beliefs, how misconstrued they may be. A Christian response would not be 'kill' (like our country decided was the correct response and the religious leaders of long ago centuries did when Jesus 'attacked' their very beliefs and ways of life). I hope you know I am not advocating today's religious leaders don't believe in justice, I am sure they do, but justice has to be better defined than just 'kill them'.
Okay, now how about in our local churches. As far as wishing anyone dead who 'attacks' the many thousands of beliefs, I feel there are very, very few of them like that....but I'll bet some do. But don't churches really KILL peoples' eternal lives (or chances to obtain them) by preaching incorrect 'truths'. People in churches say, 'ignore them--you have already tried your best to 'convert' them---let them go to hell (or at least, 'shake the dust off your feet)'. The response when people don't listen to 'reason' is not to kill them nor their chances for eternal lives, but it should be simple-pray for them. How many times did we see people (Christian people) say, 'pray for the Muslim extremists' rather than, 'they should pay for TBC Reply to this
I know I may be getting off base a bit here, but the same 'reasons' the old religious leaders did what they did, are the same ones church leaders today use for 'damning' others.
The Roman-Catholic church has had a very bloody history, persecuting, even to death, people who practice other religions (like Muslim and witchcraft). It was because MAN was in charge of those churches, as MAN is today. I would not be surprised to hear 'Reverend????' Jesse Jackson say that the death penalty needs to be used when someone is needlessly killed. Nor would I be surprised to hear other 'church leaders' say the same thing. And if they would say it for retaliation for a killing, what's to summize they wouldn't feel and say it for say, rape, maiming, or other very serious crimes against mankind? (Maybe even blasphemy????) Reply to this
Good morning all.
Lotsa and lotsa stuff in this chapter. Don't know were to begin. Maybe verse 18. Who was the man who owned the building with the 'upper room' in which Jesus and His disciples shared a meal, presumably His last one?
Obviously I have no answer to that question. I can guess the following:
1-It is someone Jesus knew, and probably known by the disciples. Even though "WE" aren't told who that was, the disciples must have been. "A certain man" could be one of thousands who owned homes in Jerusalem, so in order for the disciples to locate that home, they probably either knew him, or Jesus told them his name and the address.
2- Jesus must have already made previous arrangements with this man MANY months in advance. Supposedly around 3 million people attended the Passover Feasts in Jerusalem, so the 'chance' of finding any, let alone a large room, would have been nil....(remember the Olympics here in Atlanta).
3-We are not told if the disciples asked who and where, so we can assume once they were told who, either they knew where, or Jesus was then specific...I tend to assume they knew him.
4-Most of Jesus' followers were common men, but some of them could have owned such a large house (taxcollectors for example), but it is obvious that it was not one of 'the twelve' from these verses, so it could have been one of His other followers, outside the elect 12.
WHO? No idea, but always fun to make guesses and see if any hypothesis is correct.
Coulda been the father of John Mark. Could have been Mary's house (or her husband's). Coulda been any number of the people we have read about so far in this book. Any GUESSES?
Well, runnin' late...maybe more later as there is SO much in this chapter as I stated above.
Reply to this
quite a lot in this lengthy chapter. To have Jesus call his betrayer out in front of everyone, it had to be awkward. I wonder what the others said to him or about him? Peter's confidence in not disowning Jesus was high, yet he did it any way. In reality we have all disowned Jesus at times in our life, we have all betrayed him one time or another. The question is did we own up to it and ask for forgiveness, have we forgiven ourselves? God isa gracious God, Jesus is a compassionate Lord. He knew what Judas was going to do and still called him friend. He forgave peter before peter even did the crime. We should, and for the most part are, be so grateful for God's grace. We would all perish without it.
Reply to this
Why did the chief priests and elders want to KILL Jesus? I understand that he insulted them and that he undermined their authority. I also understand that his followers were growing and theirs shrinking. But to KILL him? Maybe this involves a different culture.
But then again, I wonder if Jesus came to America today and if he did the same with regards to established religions, would the reaction be the same? Would the church leaders of our time want to KILL him? I don't know. Was Jesus really that offensive? Is true righteousness, is true sinlessness that offensive to the world? Perhaps it really is! If so, that poses a serious challenge to us. Why don't people today want to kill us? Why are 'Christians' seen as being "good" in today's world? Are we really being like Jesus or has the world changed in 2000 years? Is America really that different from the areas Jesus lived (and died) in? I believe the world is more sinful today! If so, then shouldn't we be more offensive to the world? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think they are worth at least considering!
As I read these passages (where Jesus talks of his death), I wonder how others around him felt. Was Jesus more reflective during this time? Was he more subdued? Did he appear depressed or less enthusiastic? He knew he was going to die in a couple of days. What would you be like if you knew you were going to die in 2 days? How would you be feeling? Who would you want to spend your time with? What topics would be foremost in your mind?
Jesus' trial has always amazed me. There is no credible evidence against Jesus and the charge is laughable! Have you ever made what might seem to others to be an outlandish statement? For example, have you ever said, "I just want to ring that guys neck?" Have you ever made a statement about your wife that could be interpreted as meaning that you wish she would just go away or maybe something similar with regards to your kids? Now consider being put on trial and those statements being used to accuse you. It would almost be laughable! But that is what happened to Jesus. Some comment "I am going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days" is the accusation against him. And because he said "it is as you say" about being the Christ, the son of God, he is sentenced to death! Completely unbelievable when you stop to think about it.
Reply to this
Good points, Rich (Hey, you and Richie coming Sat evening?)...but, look at the Muslim religion today. They want to kill poets and cartoonists for what they publish. You are not even allowed to name your kid after 'their messiah'. I know lots of people named Jesus.
Now, done bashing that religion...let's try ours....but let's back up a few years to what is known as The Christian Crusades, or just "The Crusades". Although they were done mainly, I believe there were around 8 or so, to counter other peoples who had other religions (mainly Muslims) as the Christian Church (ROME) feared they'd overtake THEM, they embarked on these little field trips killing people throughout the ancient world, including 'innocent' women and children. VERY bloody. You might argue they were doing that in self defense, but Jesus was the epitomy of just the opposite...turn the other check, don't even respond to threats (as we see Him doing so here).
Now, let's move into 'modern Christianity'. You want to know if the churches are any better or different from the religious leaders (Pharisees, Sadduces, Essenes, the Scribes and the Samaritans) of Jesus' day.
Well, let's see. Do you recall any responses from Church leaders, great or small, after the great catastrophe of September 11, 2001 (yes, almost EIGHT years ago!!!)? I know, then President Bush, a 'Christian' called for their (all terrorists) heads. We ended up attacking a Muslim country, seemingly now, on extremely shaky grounds and incorrect evidence. Thousands have been killed. I know this is a touchy subject, because most Christians probably fealt, initially, the same way. But is that right?....most certainly not. Justice, maybe. MAYBE an eye for an eye type of thing, but probably not. There are REASONS their are idiots out there fighting for their own beliefs, how misconstrued they may be. A Christian response would not be 'kill' (like our country decided was the correct response and the religious leaders of long ago centuries did when Jesus 'attacked' their very beliefs and ways of life). I hope you know I am not advocating today's religious leaders don't believe in justice, I am sure they do, but justice has to be better defined than just 'kill them'.
Okay, now how about in our local churches. As far as wishing anyone dead who 'attacks' the many thousands of beliefs, I feel there are very, very few of them like that....but I'll bet some do. But don't churches really KILL peoples' eternal lives (or chances to obtain them) by preaching incorrect 'truths'. People in churches say, 'ignore them--you have already tried your best to 'convert' them---let them go to hell (or at least, 'shake the dust off your feet)'. The response when people don't listen to 'reason' is not to kill them nor their chances for eternal lives, but it should be simple-pray for them. How many times did we see people (Christian people) say, 'pray for the Muslim extremists' rather than, 'they should pay for TBC
Reply to this
their actions with death'?
I know I may be getting off base a bit here, but the same 'reasons' the old religious leaders did what they did, are the same ones church leaders today use for 'damning' others.
The Roman-Catholic church has had a very bloody history, persecuting, even to death, people who practice other religions (like Muslim and witchcraft). It was because MAN was in charge of those churches, as MAN is today. I would not be surprised to hear 'Reverend????' Jesse Jackson say that the death penalty needs to be used when someone is needlessly killed. Nor would I be surprised to hear other 'church leaders' say the same thing. And if they would say it for retaliation for a killing, what's to summize they wouldn't feel and say it for say, rape, maiming, or other very serious crimes against mankind? (Maybe even blasphemy????)
Reply to this