I wonder just how many of the 71 in the Sanhedrin, some of whom were Pharisees, really got what Jesus was saying here in 'the seven woes'. We all know Nicodemus did (if you recall he oringally came to Jesus at night in secrecy, then later defended Him in a Pharisitical (is that a word?) meeting, and then finally we find him preparing the body of Jesus with Joseph of Arithamea, as he defintely understood the teachings of Jesus. And he was a Pharisee. I wonder just how many other 'techers of the law' and Pharisees (and Saduccees as well) were positively changed after hearing Jesus tell them and all the crowds of people how wrong they were.
The 'woe' that seemed the worst to me was when Jesus said that the Pharisees went to great length to find one convert, and then they 'made him twice as much a son of hell as' they were! Whew! I'll bet there were some pretty angry men at that point in Jesus' rebuke. "Blind fools!" Snakes! Hypocrites! Blind guides! Blind fools! Brood of vipers! Jesus used strong language when necessary. Do YOU use strong language when you see or hear peeple belittling YOUR Lord? Reply to this
February 23, 2009 8:08 AM
Anonymous wrote:
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
It is amazing how scriptures like these are not mentioned that much. all eras of the Christian movement have to be careful not to let this happen. looking back at some of the ICOC practices, they were dangerously close to this. Making disciples is a command and should be our desire, our mission, our conviction. making ICOC robots was not. I am glad we are moving away from that and getting back to the basics we can all follow Jesus and encourage others to do the same. "Follow me as I follow Christ". Reply to this
February 23, 2009 10:42 PM
Johnbob wrote:
In general, I agree with you regarding icoc practices not being the best at times, but I think to compare it with this scripture is a stretch. We weren't out of touch pharisees to my knowledge - our motivation wasn't the best sometimes and our top-down authoritarian leadership was damaging in some ways, but most of the conversions and church plantings were brought about because someone had a dream and zeal and a lot of faith. I bet there were many more good stories than bad in terms of the icoc conversions. Reply to this
3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Quote "Do as i say, not as i do"
4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
So why are we as parents labeled as Mother and "FATHER"? This must be something that we do as humans that Jesus again said we werent supposed to do. I dont make my kids refer to me as there father but i have heard my wife say "go tell your father" or "go ask your father". So is that something i should put a stop to? just a thought and a question. Reply to this
February 23, 2009 10:45 AM
Sam wrote:
Nah......what He was referring to, was not your 'earthly' father, that is, the one who 'fathered' you, but rather a term desired by some religious leaders. Throughout Jesus' teachings, he used the term 'father' (pater or patera) to indicate someone's biological 'dad'. If He was scolding the people not to use that term for their 'dads', then He should also scold Himself. No, what He was referring to, was the use of that term for the religious leaders. The term ABBA, Greek for father, was used when people spoke of the scribes and the priests, as that is what they desired to be called. THAT use of the term is what Jesus objected to. They loved to be called ABBA, because they thought it made them more like God to the people. Jesus despised that, as they were no closer to God than the people whom they asked call them father. So, continue to use the term 'father' in respect to your biological dad, and yourself by your kids. Jesus was not telling you not to!!! Just don't refer to priests as 'father', like some forms of religion teach...OBVIOUSLY spits into the face of Jesus when done so. Reply to this
February 23, 2009 1:45 PM
Dustin wrote:
I understand what your saying but i dont think you saw the key word that i saw. "do not call ANYONE on earth 'father,'". I think that we all classify under the definition of ANYONE, Or am i reading to deep? Reply to this
February 23, 2009 2:12 PM
Sam wrote:
Yup...TOO deep....please look at all the times Jesus uses that 'exact same' phrase to describe the male parent of a family. Trust me, He was referring to calling ANYONE 'father' who was not either God Himself, or one's 'dad'. The Jewish religious leaders called themselves 'father' and expected the common people to do so as well. When it comes to a 'spiritual' father, their is only ONE---all these priests and scribes may have been 'dads', that is, fathers of children, but they were NOT anyone's spiritual father.
I guess you could compare it to people who flaunt their education by insisting people refer to them as "Dr." this or that (meaning having obtained a Doctorate Degree). They are no more a 'doctor' than I, and is only a self-imposed, prideful title. That's what the religious leaders did...called themselves 'father'. Not right.
BUT, glad you asked the question....I have heard this question many times, and in fact, asked it myself many years ago.
Again, if you want 'proof', read these passages: Mt 19:5, 19!!!!, 29, Mk 7:10-12 And there are lots more where Jesus Himself uses the term 'father' meaning a blood relative. Reply to this
PS---planning a 'party' for da men this Sat evening at the house....you, Tony, Rick, Rich, JB, Rich's son, Rick's oldest son, and another friend. You are invited as well (I emailed Rick as I couldn't find yours at the time). Let me know....no one else has responded yet. It will be multi-purpose: celebrate recent birthdays, set up Casino Night tables, and practice Texas-Hold-Em, and play pool. Pizza will be food. Reply to this
February 23, 2009 4:02 PM
Rich wrote:
The question is in fact interesting. I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic school. We called the priests who taught us and the priests who said the mass (i.e., did the church service) "Father." All priests are referred to as "Father" unless they are promoted to a Bishop or a Cardinal or unless they become a Pope - then they are also called "your eminence." When I started studying the Bible, I asked this question to my parents and I was told that there are some things in the Bible that a regular person cannot understand. That is why, they told me, priests or other church scholars are needed to interpret the Bible for the masses (I guess they meant for dumb people like me). Other Catholics I asked gave me similar vague answers.
The fact is, Jesus says do not elevate people in religious positions. Do not think of a rabbi, a father, a teacher or anyone else as being something "higher" or "better" than the rest. Elevated people end up being worshiped and honored. Do not praise and honor men in any way. Praise and honor are to be bestowed on God alone. Jesus says we should only praise and honor God in heaven. Our heavenly father is enough for us.
In fact, as Jesus says, people in positions of spiritual 'leadership' (if that is what we want to call it) should be "SERVANTS" to all! They are to be the butler, the maid, the driver, the person who carries the baggage, ..., SERVANTS!!! Do you know any spiritual leaders like this? Is there anyone you describe like this?
Additionally, as for "father" to those of us who have children, do you use the fact that you are a "father" to lord it over others? Does you being a father mean that your kids "owe" you something? Is the fact that you are a "father" mean that you should be elevated, praised, and honored by your children? Or does it mean that you are a SERVANT to them? It should! In this way, I believe the words of Jesus do in fact apply to us as fathers. Not that we should not be called the word "father" but we should view fatherhood as a responsibility and obligation to our children. They are more than just our kids. They are a gift from God that we need to love, protect, care for, sacrifice for, give to, ..., without conditions or limits. Just like our heavenly father treats us! Reply to this
February 23, 2009 4:40 PM
Dustin wrote:
I Agree. I was thinking about the pope after you mentioned it and thought "what was his name?" the one who died recently. During that thought is when i realized how many people flocked to his viewing after he died to praise him. Sat and waited outside of that building to find out who was going to replace him. I just thought "wow is he really that important?" Any way.
See ya all tomorrow. Sam ill talk to my wife about Saturday. See if there are any existing plans.
dustin.hofmann.ctr@navy.mil 614-562-1085 Reply to this
February 23, 2009 10:38 PM
Johnbob wrote:
Interesting background and very well said, especially the reminder about servant leadership.
The exception to giving people honor is when the bible talks about honoring elders - they are worthy of double honor according to 1 Tim 5:17. Reply to this
There, take that!
I wonder just how many of the 71 in the Sanhedrin, some of whom were Pharisees, really got what Jesus was saying here in 'the seven woes'. We all know Nicodemus did (if you recall he oringally came to Jesus at night in secrecy, then later defended Him in a Pharisitical (is that a word?) meeting, and then finally we find him preparing the body of Jesus with Joseph of Arithamea, as he defintely understood the teachings of Jesus. And he was a Pharisee. I wonder just how many other 'techers of the law' and Pharisees (and Saduccees as well) were positively changed after hearing Jesus tell them and all the crowds of people how wrong they were.
The 'woe' that seemed the worst to me was when Jesus said that the Pharisees went to great length to find one convert, and then they 'made him twice as much a son of hell as' they were! Whew! I'll bet there were some pretty angry men at that point in Jesus' rebuke. "Blind fools!" Snakes! Hypocrites! Blind guides! Blind fools! Brood of vipers! Jesus used strong language when necessary.
Do YOU use strong language when you see or hear peeple belittling YOUR Lord?
Reply to this
er, that would be 'people', not 'peeple'. Sorry.
Reply to this
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
It is amazing how scriptures like these are not mentioned that much. all eras of the Christian movement have to be careful not to let this happen. looking back at some of the ICOC practices, they were dangerously close to this. Making disciples is a command and should be our desire, our mission, our conviction. making ICOC robots was not. I am glad we are moving away from that and getting back to the basics we can all follow Jesus and encourage others to do the same. "Follow me as I follow Christ".
Reply to this
In general, I agree with you regarding icoc practices not being the best at times, but I think to compare it with this scripture is a stretch. We weren't out of touch pharisees to my knowledge - our motivation wasn't the best sometimes and our top-down authoritarian leadership was damaging in some ways, but most of the conversions and church plantings were brought about because someone had a dream and zeal and a lot of faith. I bet there were many more good stories than bad in terms of the icoc conversions.
Reply to this
Quote: "practice what you preach"
3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Quote "Do as i say, not as i do"
4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
So why are we as parents labeled as Mother and "FATHER"? This must be something that we do as humans that Jesus again said we werent supposed to do. I dont make my kids refer to me as there father but i have heard my wife say "go tell your father" or "go ask your father". So is that something i should put a stop to? just a thought and a question.
Reply to this
Nah......what He was referring to, was not your 'earthly' father, that is, the one who 'fathered' you, but rather a term desired by some religious leaders.
Throughout Jesus' teachings, he used the term 'father' (pater or patera) to indicate someone's biological 'dad'. If He was scolding the people not to use that term for their 'dads', then He should also scold Himself.
No, what He was referring to, was the use of that term for the religious leaders. The term ABBA, Greek for father, was used when people spoke of the scribes and the priests, as that is what they desired to be called. THAT use of the term is what Jesus objected to. They loved to be called ABBA, because they thought it made them more like God to the people. Jesus despised that, as they were no closer to God than the people whom they asked call them father.
So, continue to use the term 'father' in respect to your biological dad, and yourself by your kids. Jesus was not telling you not to!!!
Just don't refer to priests as 'father', like some forms of religion teach...OBVIOUSLY spits into the face of Jesus when done so.
Reply to this
I understand what your saying but i dont think you saw the key word that i saw. "do not call ANYONE on earth 'father,'". I think that we all classify under the definition of ANYONE, Or am i reading to deep?
Reply to this
Yup...TOO deep....please look at all the times Jesus uses that 'exact same' phrase to describe the male parent of a family. Trust me, He was referring to calling ANYONE 'father' who was not either God Himself, or one's 'dad'. The Jewish religious leaders called themselves 'father' and expected the common people to do so as well. When it comes to a 'spiritual' father, their is only ONE---all these priests and scribes may have been 'dads', that is, fathers of children, but they were NOT anyone's spiritual father.
I guess you could compare it to people who flaunt their education by insisting people refer to them as "Dr." this or that (meaning having obtained a Doctorate Degree). They are no more a 'doctor' than I, and is only a self-imposed, prideful title. That's what the religious leaders did...called themselves 'father'. Not right.
BUT, glad you asked the question....I have heard this question many times, and in fact, asked it myself many years ago.
Again, if you want 'proof', read these passages:
Mt 19:5, 19!!!!, 29,
Mk 7:10-12
And there are lots more where Jesus Himself uses the term 'father' meaning a blood relative.
Reply to this
See thats why i ask the old....er....more mature brothers.
BTW...I have only ever let my Grandmother call me Dusty. So now you have some history on it.
Reply to this
Roger, Dustin....
Mac
PS---planning a 'party' for da men this Sat evening at the house....you, Tony, Rick, Rich, JB, Rich's son, Rick's oldest son, and another friend. You are invited as well (I emailed Rick as I couldn't find yours at the time). Let me know....no one else has responded yet. It will be multi-purpose: celebrate recent birthdays, set up Casino Night tables, and practice Texas-Hold-Em, and play pool.
Pizza will be food.
Reply to this
The question is in fact interesting. I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic school. We called the priests who taught us and the priests who said the mass (i.e., did the church service) "Father." All priests are referred to as "Father" unless they are promoted to a Bishop or a Cardinal or unless they become a Pope - then they are also called "your eminence." When I started studying the Bible, I asked this question to my parents and I was told that there are some things in the Bible that a regular person cannot understand. That is why, they told me, priests or other church scholars are needed to interpret the Bible for the masses (I guess they meant for dumb people like me). Other Catholics I asked gave me similar vague answers.
The fact is, Jesus says do not elevate people in religious positions. Do not think of a rabbi, a father, a teacher or anyone else as being something "higher" or "better" than the rest. Elevated people end up being worshiped and honored. Do not praise and honor men in any way. Praise and honor are to be bestowed on God alone. Jesus says we should only praise and honor God in heaven. Our heavenly father is enough for us.
In fact, as Jesus says, people in positions of spiritual 'leadership' (if that is what we want to call it) should be "SERVANTS" to all! They are to be the butler, the maid, the driver, the person who carries the baggage, ..., SERVANTS!!! Do you know any spiritual leaders like this? Is there anyone you describe like this?
Additionally, as for "father" to those of us who have children, do you use the fact that you are a "father" to lord it over others? Does you being a father mean that your kids "owe" you something? Is the fact that you are a "father" mean that you should be elevated, praised, and honored by your children? Or does it mean that you are a SERVANT to them? It should! In this way, I believe the words of Jesus do in fact apply to us as fathers. Not that we should not be called the word "father" but we should view fatherhood as a responsibility and obligation to our children. They are more than just our kids. They are a gift from God that we need to love, protect, care for, sacrifice for, give to, ..., without conditions or limits. Just like our heavenly father treats us!
Reply to this
Yeah.....what he said. (Much more eloquently than I).
Reply to this
I Agree. I was thinking about the pope after you mentioned it and thought "what was his name?" the one who died recently. During that thought is when i realized how many people flocked to his viewing after he died to praise him. Sat and waited outside of that building to find out who was going to replace him. I just thought "wow is he really that important?" Any way.
See ya all tomorrow. Sam ill talk to my wife about Saturday. See if there are any existing plans.
dustin.hofmann.ctr@navy.mil
614-562-1085
Reply to this
Interesting background and very well said, especially the reminder about servant leadership.
The exception to giving people honor is when the bible talks about honoring elders - they are worthy of double honor according to 1 Tim 5:17.
Reply to this