February 19, 2009 6:55 AM
Sam wrote:
The rich young man story has always been intriguing to me. The first question he asks, and how Jesus responded is interesting...."...what good thing must I do....?" To which Jesus responded "Why do you ask me about what is good. There is only ONE who is good...." Strange response. The young man was not asking WHO was good, but simply what good THING must he do? Like today, we do 'good' things all the time (at least as Christians and basic 'good' human beings, we should). Aren't all the things that we do for God, good? Confusing to me why He would answer in such a way (tone). Maybe He knew the guy's heart and was answering knowing that He could never do anything really 'good' with a selfish heart which the story appears to present.
Oh well....maybe some of you could explain why Jesus would say that about the word 'good'. I looked up in the Greek Bible and found that the phrase 'good thing' (in the NIV), is agathon, which really means 'beneficial'. (I also found that the KJV has the sentence starting off with 'Good Teacher', but the Greek Bible only has the word 'teacher' (didaskale), not 'good teacher'.) AND, to confuse matters more, the KJV is completely different in these two verses, in that in 17 it says "Good Teacher" (as I mentioned above), and then in 18 it says "And he said unto him Why callest thou ME GOOD there is none good but one that is God but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments." The NIV doesn't say anything about the man calling JESUS good, only 'things'. When I look at the Greek, I see that it also doesn't seem to be referring to Jesus as good, but only what is beneficial to the man. (NO, I do not know Greek (wish I did), but the parallel Bible (either Biblos.com or biblecc.org) allows you to 'mouse over' the Greek lexicon and see the Greek-English translation.)
THe KJV, with the guy called Jesus good, makes more sense when the second verse in the KJV responds with no ONE being good, except God Himself...BUT, that is not what the Greek words appear to be saying. AND, the NIV is completely different than the KJV in this matter.
SO, my point? Heck, I don't know. Been trying to figure out some 'lesson' from the reading this morning that maybe we haven't thought of before, but can't, so decided to do some Scripture comparison instead. Unfortunately, I am more confused now that when I first read it. Reply to this
February 19, 2009 1:15 PM
rik wrote:
If you want to be perfect... we all know it is impossible to be perfect. we also know how hard it was for spiritual men of the bible to obey the commandments, yet this kid come along and says, "All these I have kept", Moses could not keep all of them, Abraham could not, and so on. God does not call us to be perfect, that is why we have grace. Yet this kid wanted to be perfect. He was successful (rich) and I think it was self earned not inherited, this young man was "sharp" (we have all heard this term before) wealthy, smart, eager, most likely good looking, and driven to succeed. Several years ago ICOC would have had him in the full time ministry right away. God looks at the heart. I think Jesus saw an arrogant, prideful earner. "What can I do to earn my spot in heaven, what can I accomplish so others will see how great I am?" those kind of thoughts. I also think Jesus already knew he would not be able to give up all his wealth, but if he had the right motives I do not think he would have had to. God judges the thought and attitudes of the heart. God does not look at the things man looks at.(David) Jesus does not want the church to be run like a business. This man was all business. I do not see it overly important as to weather he was saying good teacher nor doing good things, but his heart on trying to impress Jesus with a "look at me" attitude. I may be way off here but that is what I see. Reply to this
February 19, 2009 1:27 PM
rik wrote:
another thought. Jesus lists just 4 0f the commandments and then he throws in the love your neighbor as yourself which is not one of the 10 commandments. the rich youngster blurted out "all of these I have kept blah blah..." If one knew the commandments wouldn't he ask how the 'love your neighbor' one fits? If he knew the commandments he may have asked some questions to understand why Jesus put that one in with the others. He also may have asked why Jesus also left some others out. I do not think he knew the commandments, and when Jesus tested him he tried to sound religious. It is like saying "I am a Christian", yet you do not know even some of the simplest stories of Jesus. We have all met people like this. My prayer is that I never get religious. -having a form of godliness but denying its power. Reply to this
February 19, 2009 2:20 PM
Sam wrote:
Three things: 1-It is important to know which was right, KJV or NIV. Not critical, but important to understanding of this message.
2-GREAT comment about 'not all' of the commandments and the 'extra' one thrown in; and that Jesus was 'testing' him....good insight!
February 19, 2009 8:57 PM
Anonymous wrote:
Good point about whether or not this man followed all these, though the parallel passage in Mark says a couple things that are interesting - first it says that Jesus looked at him and loved him (I wonder how Mark knew this, aside from special revelation). So Jesus' attitude toward this person is one of deep caring, and then Jesus says 'One thing you lack' - which is similar to 'If you want to be perfect' in the sense that he doesn't say anything about that ridiculous statement about this man having kept all those commands since he was a boy - I don't know why not, but one would assume that Jesus could have easily addressed the specifics of how this person fell short. Maybe Jesus' believed this person's efforts, even if he was deceived - I mean he had money and presumably power - those tend to go with all sorts of worldly sins, yet this young man was different at least to the extent that he wasn't into all the worldly sin that he could have been.
Which brings us to the 1 thing. The one thing for this man was his money. I get the sense that Jesus was really drawn to this person (he looked at him and loved him). In Mark, the final judgement regarding the rich has an exclamation point. You get the idea that Jesus is not mad at this man like he was at the Pharisees, but at the frustration of someone who was really so close to the kingdom - they just couldn't give up that one thing. When Jesus got worked up, it was mostly directed at the Pharisees for being hypocrites or his disciples for being stubborn (poor Peter). It is interesting that Jesus just let this man go - Jesus had given him a challenge and the man had no retort - and Jesus didn't plead with the man, or lower his standards, or condemn him publicly. He did give a warning though - about as strong a warning as one could give - that it is really hard for the rich to be saved. I think we need to be careful how we interpret that verse. I think we can list out many reasons on why it is hard for the rich to be saved - reliance on self, pride, callous toward the needy, etc. Thank God that in the end, Jesus says that all things are possible with God. So it is possible for rich people to be saved.
The disciples reaction is telling - "who then can be saved?" I think their attitude (like Rik's first post above) is that the rich are special (sharp!) - they have God's blessing, so therefore, they must be right with God. This goes on today for sure. And I have known some rich people who are really generous and great people - it is hard for me to make a judgement on them besides the good things I see. However, I believe today that blindness envelops many of us Americans when it comes to being 'rich'. The point is (and the challenge is) that we are all rich. It will be difficult for us to get to heaven according to Jesus. It has been difficult for me: (CONT'D) Reply to this
February 19, 2009 9:28 PM
Johnbob wrote:
sorry - that long rambling was me, Johnbob. So in what way am I rich? I earn a great salary (for the time being) and so does Beda. But I was not disciplined and somehow got into some substantial debt by buying too big a house (at the height of the boom) and a new car (should have bought a cheapo used one) - and how has it affected me? Well, I can start with guilt - it is hard to shake when the results of your sin have such a lasting effect. We have made many changes, but I feel like we have not been radical enough. And Beda wanted to work so I let her go back to school, which is okay - however, except for the fact that Beda has a school schedule working for Fulton county, I would rather have her home - think about what you have to give up if the wife works full time - you give up eating healthy (who has time/energy to cook), she is always tired at night, so the love life is not as often as you like, and the kids aren't as active because who has time to haul them around or coach their sports. So why does mom have to work - because the standard of living is so high that two incomes are 'required'. If suffering bring us closer to God, helps our character (1 Peter?), and make us more like Jesus (Phillipians?), then why can't I just say 'No' to eating out --- for a MONTH --- for the entire family. That is impossible. I have chosen not to 'suffer' and have consistently overspent - and even though we are going in the other direction now, I feel that we are not doing so fast enough, especially if I get laid off. So while I am on a rant, who really needs cable? If it was up to me, I would have no cable and could get away with not having the internet (we live close to a library for blog/web/email) - a lot less temptation for me there. There is a balance there somewhere, I know - otherwise, monks/nuns would be what really pleases God, and I don't think that is right. I get jealous of the Amish/Menonite community sometimes - they are odd, but at least they aren't weighed down by the world and debts to the level that some of us are.
So those are some of my rambling thoughts regarding why it is hard for the rich to be save and where some of my frustrations have been lately. Reply to this
You are SO SO right, JB....we too have lived beyond our means, and continue to do so. Instead of saving more for that 'future', we continue to spend, spend, spend. We bought a $176K RV--one of those impulse buys...you know, where you go to the grocery store and on the way out you buy one of those cute keychains because 'you simply had to have one'....well, that's what we did with the RV. Bad mistake. When/if I sell it, it will have taken THOUSANDS, problably tens of thousands, of dollars away from our savings plan. (You wanna buy one?...got a GREAT deal on it for ya!!!).
Oh the pains of being rich. I too could get by without cable, except it would KILL my wife not to have House, American Idol and HGTV....ESPECIALLY HGTV. Me? Give me the internet for News and research and I'm a happy camper.
IF I was a bettin' man, which I ain't, I'd bet a good ol' 'Murican dollar you have never heard that quote. Now, you MIGHT have, if you were from Vermont. WAIT! Rik IS from the Northeast Kingdom, isn't he?
Well, let me explain. A 'common' expression, at least in earlier American churches, 'from Dan to Beersheba', or 'from Beersheba to Dan', was meant to express a huge distance. Ya see, Dan, a Biblical City named after Dan, one of the original 12 Tribe Leaders, sons of Jacob, was located in the northern part of Israel, and the town of Beersheba, it's name meaning 'well' (as there are an abundance of wells in the city), and 'seven' (or to swear an oath), was located in the South. If you look at the following verses, you will see the original expression come alive...verses Judges 20:1, 1 Samuel 3:20, 2 Samuel 3:10, 2 Samuel 17:11, 2 Samuel 24:2, 2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Kings 4:25, 1 Chronicles 21:2, and 2 Chronicles 30:5.
All these verses use that term (or a variant of it), and generally describes the 'trip' between the northern most settled Israelite city, and the southern most.
And, now, just to tell you, that original 'quote' at the start of this blog came from one Mr. Francis Coburn, a UVM professor turned comedian, of whom most of you have heard me talk about. He said this in his story he was telling to describe a long journey, and then added when his audience didn't laugh very much, "Well obviously, none of you have read your bibles."
That's pretty much the way I see all of us. 'Well obviously, none of (us) have read (our) bibles." (This is NOT a slam on ya'll!!!) We REALLY don't do very well knowing what our Bible says. Sure, we know the 'important' stuff, about salvation and hell and heaven and Jesus, but we are generally very immature when it comes to knowing much else in there.
Why is that? We can quote poems, songs (complete), popular quotes of the day, and yet when it comes to the one document that really tells us how to live our lives, we have trouble even finding Scripture, much less regurgitate it.
Again, I am not harping on YOU, but US. I really think it would be so much fun to have the time to sit and read and discuss and learn from the many stories and 'quotes' available to us in one source.
Here's a challenge. FIND 10 'quotes' which are in common use today which were derived from the Bible. Make this your quiet time some time this, or next week. Don't cheat and use the internet, but first just think of a bunch of quotes you know by heart that you have heard people say (like "red sky at night, sailors' delight; red sky at morn, sailors bewarned."), and then search the Bible using the hundreds of word searches available to you to FIND the 'original' in the Bible. (You can use Bible tools to do this, but not just general Internet searches....I mean, search the online Bibles themselves directly. Good luck! Reply to this
The rich young man story has always been intriguing to me. The first question he asks, and how Jesus responded is interesting...."...what good thing must I do....?" To which Jesus responded "Why do you ask me about what is good. There is only ONE who is good...." Strange response. The young man was not asking WHO was good, but simply what good THING must he do? Like today, we do 'good' things all the time (at least as Christians and basic 'good' human beings, we should). Aren't all the things that we do for God, good? Confusing to me why He would answer in such a way (tone). Maybe He knew the guy's heart and was answering knowing that He could never do anything really 'good' with a selfish heart which the story appears to present.
Oh well....maybe some of you could explain why Jesus would say that about the word 'good'. I looked up in the Greek Bible and found that the phrase 'good thing' (in the NIV), is agathon, which really means 'beneficial'. (I also found that the KJV has the sentence starting off with 'Good Teacher', but the Greek Bible only has the word 'teacher' (didaskale), not 'good teacher'.) AND, to confuse matters more, the KJV is completely different in these two verses, in that in 17 it says "Good Teacher" (as I mentioned above), and then in 18 it says "And he said unto him Why callest thou ME GOOD there is none good but one that is God but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments." The NIV doesn't say anything about the man calling JESUS good, only 'things'. When I look at the Greek, I see that it also doesn't seem to be referring to Jesus as good, but only what is beneficial to the man. (NO, I do not know Greek (wish I did), but the parallel Bible (either Biblos.com or biblecc.org) allows you to 'mouse over' the Greek lexicon and see the Greek-English translation.)
THe KJV, with the guy called Jesus good, makes more sense when the second verse in the KJV responds with no ONE being good, except God Himself...BUT, that is not what the Greek words appear to be saying. AND, the NIV is completely different than the KJV in this matter.
SO, my point? Heck, I don't know. Been trying to figure out some 'lesson' from the reading this morning that maybe we haven't thought of before, but can't, so decided to do some Scripture comparison instead. Unfortunately, I am more confused now that when I first read it.
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If you want to be perfect... we all know it is impossible to be perfect. we also know how hard it was for spiritual men of the bible to obey the commandments, yet this kid come along and says, "All these I have kept", Moses could not keep all of them, Abraham could not, and so on. God does not call us to be perfect, that is why we have grace. Yet this kid wanted to be perfect. He was successful (rich) and I think it was self earned not inherited, this young man was "sharp" (we have all heard this term before) wealthy, smart, eager, most likely good looking, and driven to succeed. Several years ago ICOC would have had him in the full time ministry right away. God looks at the heart. I think Jesus saw an arrogant, prideful earner. "What can I do to earn my spot in heaven, what can I accomplish so others will see how great I am?" those kind of thoughts. I also think Jesus already knew he would not be able to give up all his wealth, but if he had the right motives I do not think he would have had to. God judges the thought and attitudes of the heart. God does not look at the things man looks at.(David) Jesus does not want the church to be run like a business. This man was all business. I do not see it overly important as to weather he was saying good teacher nor doing good things, but his heart on trying to impress Jesus with a "look at me" attitude. I may be way off here but that is what I see.
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Feel better?
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another thought. Jesus lists just 4 0f the commandments and then he throws in the love your neighbor as yourself which is not one of the 10 commandments. the rich youngster blurted out "all of these I have kept blah blah..." If one knew the commandments wouldn't he ask how the 'love your neighbor' one fits? If he knew the commandments he may have asked some questions to understand why Jesus put that one in with the others. He also may have asked why Jesus also left some others out. I do not think he knew the commandments, and when Jesus tested him he tried to sound religious. It is like saying "I am a Christian", yet you do not know even some of the simplest stories of Jesus. We have all met people like this. My prayer is that I never get religious. -having a form of godliness but denying its power.
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Three things:
1-It is important to know which was right, KJV or NIV. Not critical, but important to understanding of this message.
2-GREAT comment about 'not all' of the commandments and the 'extra' one thrown in; and that Jesus was 'testing' him....good insight!
3-Congratulations on your sixteen!
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Good point about whether or not this man followed all these, though the parallel passage in Mark says a couple things that are interesting - first it says that Jesus looked at him and loved him (I wonder how Mark knew this, aside from special revelation). So Jesus' attitude toward this person is one of deep caring, and then Jesus says 'One thing you lack' - which is similar to 'If you want to be perfect' in the sense that he doesn't say anything about that ridiculous statement about this man having kept all those commands since he was a boy - I don't know why not, but one would assume that Jesus could have easily addressed the specifics of how this person fell short. Maybe Jesus' believed this person's efforts, even if he was deceived - I mean he had money and presumably power - those tend to go with all sorts of worldly sins, yet this young man was different at least to the extent that he wasn't into all the worldly sin that he could have been.
Which brings us to the 1 thing. The one thing for this man was his money. I get the sense that Jesus was really drawn to this person (he looked at him and loved him). In Mark, the final judgement regarding the rich has an exclamation point. You get the idea that Jesus is not mad at this man like he was at the Pharisees, but at the frustration of someone who was really so close to the kingdom - they just couldn't give up that one thing. When Jesus got worked up, it was mostly directed at the Pharisees for being hypocrites or his disciples for being stubborn (poor Peter). It is interesting that Jesus just let this man go - Jesus had given him a challenge and the man had no retort - and Jesus didn't plead with the man, or lower his standards, or condemn him publicly. He did give a warning though - about as strong a warning as one could give - that it is really hard for the rich to be saved. I think we need to be careful how we interpret that verse. I think we can list out many reasons on why it is hard for the rich to be saved - reliance on self, pride, callous toward the needy, etc. Thank God that in the end, Jesus says that all things are possible with God. So it is possible for rich people to be saved.
The disciples reaction is telling - "who then can be saved?" I think their attitude (like Rik's first post above) is that the rich are special (sharp!) - they have God's blessing, so therefore, they must be right with God. This goes on today for sure. And I have known some rich people who are really generous and great people - it is hard for me to make a judgement on them besides the good things I see. However, I believe today that blindness envelops many of us Americans when it comes to being 'rich'. The point is (and the challenge is) that we are all rich. It will be difficult for us to get to heaven according to Jesus. It has been difficult for me: (CONT'D)
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sorry - that long rambling was me, Johnbob. So in what way am I rich? I earn a great salary (for the time being) and so does Beda. But I was not disciplined and somehow got into some substantial debt by buying too big a house (at the height of the boom) and a new car (should have bought a cheapo used one) - and how has it affected me? Well, I can start with guilt - it is hard to shake when the results of your sin have such a lasting effect. We have made many changes, but I feel like we have not been radical enough. And Beda wanted to work so I let her go back to school, which is okay - however, except for the fact that Beda has a school schedule working for Fulton county, I would rather have her home - think about what you have to give up if the wife works full time - you give up eating healthy (who has time/energy to cook), she is always tired at night, so the love life is not as often as you like, and the kids aren't as active because who has time to haul them around or coach their sports. So why does mom have to work - because the standard of living is so high that two incomes are 'required'. If suffering bring us closer to God, helps our character (1 Peter?), and make us more like Jesus (Phillipians?), then why can't I just say 'No' to eating out --- for a MONTH --- for the entire family. That is impossible. I have chosen not to 'suffer' and have consistently overspent - and even though we are going in the other direction now, I feel that we are not doing so fast enough, especially if I get laid off. So while I am on a rant, who really needs cable? If it was up to me, I would have no cable and could get away with not having the internet (we live close to a library for blog/web/email) - a lot less temptation for me there. There is a balance there somewhere, I know - otherwise, monks/nuns would be what really pleases God, and I don't think that is right. I get jealous of the Amish/Menonite community sometimes - they are odd, but at least they aren't weighed down by the world and debts to the level that some of us are.
So those are some of my rambling thoughts regarding why it is hard for the rich to be save and where some of my frustrations have been lately.
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BLASPHEMY!!!!!! NO INTERNET??? I'D DIE! SIMPLY DIE!!!!
But, on the joking side......
You are SO SO right, JB....we too have lived beyond our means, and continue to do so. Instead of saving more for that 'future', we continue to spend, spend, spend. We bought a $176K RV--one of those impulse buys...you know, where you go to the grocery store and on the way out you buy one of those cute keychains because 'you simply had to have one'....well, that's what we did with the RV. Bad mistake. When/if I sell it, it will have taken THOUSANDS, problably tens of thousands, of dollars away from our savings plan. (You wanna buy one?...got a GREAT deal on it for ya!!!).
Oh the pains of being rich. I too could get by without cable, except it would KILL my wife not to have House, American Idol and HGTV....ESPECIALLY HGTV. Me? Give me the internet for News and research and I'm a happy camper.
Gotta run....tired.
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FYI Today is my 16th wedding anniversary. sweet 16!!!!
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"From Beersheba to Dan, and back again by the southern route."
IF I was a bettin' man, which I ain't, I'd bet a good ol' 'Murican dollar you have never heard that quote. Now, you MIGHT have, if you were from Vermont. WAIT! Rik IS from the Northeast Kingdom, isn't he?
Well, let me explain. A 'common' expression, at least in earlier American churches, 'from Dan to Beersheba', or 'from Beersheba to Dan', was meant to express a huge distance. Ya see, Dan, a Biblical City named after Dan, one of the original 12 Tribe Leaders, sons of Jacob, was located in the northern part of Israel, and the town of Beersheba, it's name meaning 'well' (as there are an abundance of wells in the city), and 'seven' (or to swear an oath), was located in the South. If you look at the following verses, you will see the original expression come alive...verses Judges 20:1,
1 Samuel 3:20,
2 Samuel 3:10,
2 Samuel 17:11,
2 Samuel 24:2,
2 Samuel 24:15,
1 Kings 4:25,
1 Chronicles 21:2, and
2 Chronicles 30:5.
All these verses use that term (or a variant of it), and generally describes the 'trip' between the northern most settled Israelite city, and the southern most.
And, now, just to tell you, that original 'quote' at the start of this blog came from one Mr. Francis Coburn, a UVM professor turned comedian, of whom most of you have heard me talk about. He said this in his story he was telling to describe a long journey, and then added when his audience didn't laugh very much, "Well obviously, none of you have read your bibles."
That's pretty much the way I see all of us. 'Well obviously, none of (us) have read (our) bibles." (This is NOT a slam on ya'll!!!) We REALLY don't do very well knowing what our Bible says. Sure, we know the 'important' stuff, about salvation and hell and heaven and Jesus, but we are generally very immature when it comes to knowing much else in there.
Why is that? We can quote poems, songs (complete), popular quotes of the day, and yet when it comes to the one document that really tells us how to live our lives, we have trouble even finding Scripture, much less regurgitate it.
Again, I am not harping on YOU, but US. I really think it would be so much fun to have the time to sit and read and discuss and learn from the many stories and 'quotes' available to us in one source.
Here's a challenge. FIND 10 'quotes' which are in common use today which were derived from the Bible. Make this your quiet time some time this, or next week. Don't cheat and use the internet, but first just think of a bunch of quotes you know by heart that you have heard people say (like "red sky at night, sailors' delight; red sky at morn, sailors bewarned."), and then search the Bible using the hundreds of word searches available to you to FIND the 'original' in the Bible. (You can use Bible tools to do this, but not just general Internet searches....I mean, search the online Bibles themselves directly. Good luck!
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