February 18, 2009 9:10 AM
Rich wrote:
Jesus was so radical. We read here Jesus' attitude toward sin - cut off and throw away, gouge out .... Do you have the same attitude toward sin? Sadly, I don't. I don't see sin like Jesus saw sin. I know sin is bad, but I don't have a radical attitude like what is described here. I don't think: "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin." I can think of many, many things in the world that cause people to sin. Like, TV, internet, the way women dress, ads in magazines and newspaper, greed, wanting what others have, the riches and excesses of our society, course language, songs and on and on. Do I have the same attitude about these things that Jesus did? NO. And to my shame, I don't know why I don't have that attitude. I want to follow Jesus and I want to do what is right, but I cuddle with things that cause sin much more than I am repelled by them.
Do you believe that you have an angel (or angels) that watch over you and protect you? Do you believe that God has assigned an angel to you? Verse 10b is very interesting: "Their angels in heaven ...." Does this mean God assigns angels to us? I don't really know. I know that I believe in angels (because the Bible speaks about them. But do I believe that I have an angel sitting with me right now? Do I believe I have an angel with me when I play with the things of the world that cause men to sin? Do I have an angel with me when I talk to my wife? I don't know. I am curious what others think about personal angels.
The parable of the unmerciful servant is the most challenging parable in the Bible to me. God has forgiven me of so, so, so much!!! I have and I continue to hurt him so much. If I truly understand the love and mercy of God, how can I ever hold something against someone else? How can I not forgive freely? What possible reason could I ever have to hold a grudge? How can I let hurt feelings damage my relationships with others?
Most challenging of all? "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." Reply to this
February 18, 2009 9:28 AM
rik wrote:
Vs 18 has me thinking. I am trying to see what is meant. Other translations say: NTL 18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you forbid[f] on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit[g] on earth will be permitted in heaven. MESSAGE Take this most seriously: A yes on earth is yes in heaven; a no on earth is no in heaven. What you say to one another is eternal.
Then Jesus goes into the two or more in prayer scripture, so they must tie together. I am thinking we aught to be careful what we pray for and how we pray for it. Our prayers are binding in heaven as well as earth. yeses and noes are also binding in heaven. We should really put thought in to what we say on a regular basis, especially in prayer with one another. Reply to this
February 18, 2009 12:30 PM
Sam wrote:
Interesting point you make, Rich, about 'personal angels'. I never really thought that we had 'personal' ones looking over us. But, after re-reading the verse you mentioned (10), I now note it said 'their' angels...not just 'plain' angels. I have been looking at this for a bit, especially after people talk about angels having wings, as well as what this verse appears to indicate, 'personal' angels. It is true that angels exist...far too many verses explicitly state so. Some folks say that they have wings and fall back to chapter 1 in Ezekiel where he sees this strange vision with wheels, faces, wings, etc. If angels have wings, then they must also have four faces, wheels, and everything else envisioned by Ezekiel. And chapter 10 in that book also describes some weird things called cherubim. I have heard it said that they were a 'class' of angels. I'm not sure what they were, but they were NOT the angels to whom Jesus was referring in his story of the little children, I bet. Throughout the Bible, angels appeared as man (masculine, never feminine). And they also appeared as 'evil spirits', which Jesus and the Disciples were able to 'drive away'. There are just too many references to angels to go into here, but I found one excellent source which goes into this subject a lot---if interested, check out this work done by someone else already....really very interesting. http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t005.html
But, back to the ORIGINAL question. Most of you have heard MY Angel story, so I tend to lean toward personal angels, but then, if we all had them all the time, then everything would be peachy keen all the time, I mean, the angel(s) would always be there to 'do whatever angels do' (see that link on Scriptures that show WHAT they do). If we have personal ones, do we have more than one? Do they ALWAYS protect, warn, guide, etc, or only sometimes? Christians die from accidents all the time, as well as being killed and injured by others. So, where were their angels? I doubt they were 'taking a break', so stuff like this tends to make one think we don't have angels who look out for us all the time. Maybe on occasion, and maybe only when we 'need' it....but then, I go back to the untimely death of Christians, so I don't know. Maybe children as a whole have 'their' set of angels in Heaven. Maybe not. I am very intrigued over the Bible's use of these beings, but unfortunately, I doubt I will ever be confident in their real purposes until I meet one [mine?] in Heaven.
Rich...from yesterday..appreciate the kind words, BUT, 1-only two of those blogs were really mine...the other was a CNN story. And 2-I do this blog thing because it makes me feel better. It helps me to write out what I learn, think and experience about God; and I want to share it, that's all. I do NOT do it to 'amaze' ya'll....the original concept from Tony was simply a place to share ideas as we read the Bible in a structured manner. I like structure!!!!! Reply to this
February 18, 2009 12:36 PM
Sam wrote:
"For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Does that mean He is NOT there when ONE person 'comes together'? I wonder why He said it this way. I probably would have indicated that He was with anyONE, one or more, anytime, when he, she or they prayed. Does that indicate we NEED to get others to pray the same things we do, otherwise He won't listen? I don't think so, but this statement is confusing. Any comments from you praying warriors (one of my weaknesses, by the way)? Reply to this
14 [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the key of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts" (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Just a couple things i found.... Matthew 18:18 is the churches discipline on removing someone from the church i think. Reply to this
Not sure how you got that idea from that Scripture. I see verse 18 as a warning to us to live righteous lives.
If you are really referring to verse 17 ("If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."), I would still have to disagree with you. What does Jesus do with Gentiles and tax collectors? LOVES them. And, we should as well. He is using 'despicable' terms to the Jews here. The Gentiles did not believe in one God, THE ONE GOD, which the Jews did. They were always at odds. And the other despicable group of people, at least to the Jews, were the Jewish, yes, Jewish, tax collectors. They were known for being dishonest, collecting FROM THE JEWS, more tax than they owed, because they got to keep anything above what the Romans demanded that they were able to collect. Yes, very despicable people to the Jews. BUT, how do you handle despicable people? You love them. You pray for them. The example leading up to verse 17 is not a guide for the Church to 'remove' someone from the body of Christ, but to have patience with them EVEN AFTER THE CHURCH FAILED TO CONVINCE THEM. You must love them and pray for them, not cast them aside. Jesus never cast anyone aside. Even the Pharisees who were Jesus' biggest enemies were not caste from him. Remember Nicodemus? Remember Saul(Paul)? Both Pharisees!! No, LOVE them like Jesus did, even when rebuking them. See Timothy 4:2. When church leaders think they can throw someone out of the body of Christ, they need to remember John 8:7.
Maybe you can isolate someone from meeting with the body because of his/her actions during those meetings (for the betterment of the others) temporarily, but men can not isolate that person from God, from the body of Christ. Jesus told His disciples to 'shake the dust of their shoes' if they are rejected. However, that didn't say to give up on the people.
We had a really great sermon on Sunday (visiting guest preacher) about this subject (not giving up on anyone). It'll be posted next week as an audio message at nlccga.org.....check it out later. Reply to this
The statement is made to the Apostles, not to all Christians.
The previous verse gives us this information: Matthew 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
This is the same "gift" given to Peter in Matthew 16:19: "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Jesus promised the Apostles a unique power, an authority to bind the new law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2). This promise, in Matthew 18, is to them specifically.
I took your words and now i constantly am searching for answers. This one had more scriptures to back its context. And you are right, we are supposed to love.
This was from a blog that someone else posted.
Sorry about the first post it came from a catholic churchs information site. probably why we had a different view of the verse.
I also read this "we search out the perfect church, but since we are not perfect; as soon as we join, the church is no longer perfect". I thought it was pretty good conserning us as sinners.
Yeah, the Catholic Church IS different. They have their methods, their doctrine and their traditions...many of which conflict directly with what Jesus was preaching (not all, but many). Traditions is the worst, I think, for them. Also, you might be surprised to learn that only until very recent history did the Roman Catholic church organization 'allow' its constituents to read the Bible...they were afraid there would be too many interpretations of God's Word, and some might be in conflict with their doctrine...imagine that. Can you imagine Paul, Peter, Timothy, or even Jesus, dressing in 'fine' purple robes with tassles and hats and silver cups and bowls and ....and... to conduct a service for God? Not hardly. That was what the Pharisees did, and we all know how Jesus looked at them. Jesus' church is a down to earth, so to speak, system of people who have come to Him for salvation. They didn't come to do rosaries, hail mary's or confession booths or things of that nature...they came to worship God during THEIR services. Traditions of man ruin worship, making it a show amongst men, rather than a meaningful, heart-fealt 'demonstration' to God Himself.
I LOVE to hear YOUR comments from what you gleaned from the Scriptures, before extra out-of-Bible research is done. THEN go to other sources to prove or disprove or support what YOUR thoughts were about specific Scriptures. That's what I try to do. I read the 'assignment', contemplate on what it means (or doesn't mean) to me. I write those thoughts down. Then I try to recall supporting/conflicting passages/stories/events in the Bible and look them up. Then I modify my original thoughts if necessary. Then, I go to my favorite 'library' of them all, the Internet. I admit I DO learn a lot from that source, but I always find myself going back to the Bible to see what was said on the electronic highway is supportable by what God says. Keep up the good work.
February 18, 2009 4:24 PM
Dustin wrote:
I got stuck on 10,000 talents. As for trying to do a money exchange i am going to use my nkjv that has values for todays economy: Gold talent = $5,760,000 silver talent = $384,000
10,000 x 5,760,000 = $57,600,000,000
10,000 x 384,000 = $3,840,000,000
also says that before the use of coins they were named after there weight: Common talent = 75 pounds royal talent = 150 pounds
So, honestly, could you say to your brother that you would forgive him of his debt if he owed you 57 billion dollars?
I would love to see what the founder of microsoft would say, or Donald Trump, or any of those rich guys.
I now have a much better understanding of these verses than before. Now that i know how much the master forgave the servant for. Just plain WOW. I think that i would have done the same thing as the master after i forgave him and the servant did what he did after. Reply to this
Jesus was so radical. We read here Jesus' attitude toward sin - cut off and throw away, gouge out .... Do you have the same attitude toward sin? Sadly, I don't. I don't see sin like Jesus saw sin. I know sin is bad, but I don't have a radical attitude like what is described here. I don't think: "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin." I can think of many, many things in the world that cause people to sin. Like, TV, internet, the way women dress, ads in magazines and newspaper, greed, wanting what others have, the riches and excesses of our society, course language, songs and on and on. Do I have the same attitude about these things that Jesus did? NO. And to my shame, I don't know why I don't have that attitude. I want to follow Jesus and I want to do what is right, but I cuddle with things that cause sin much more than I am repelled by them.
Do you believe that you have an angel (or angels) that watch over you and protect you? Do you believe that God has assigned an angel to you? Verse 10b is very interesting: "Their angels in heaven ...." Does this mean God assigns angels to us? I don't really know. I know that I believe in angels (because the Bible speaks about them. But do I believe that I have an angel sitting with me right now? Do I believe I have an angel with me when I play with the things of the world that cause men to sin? Do I have an angel with me when I talk to my wife? I don't know. I am curious what others think about personal angels.
The parable of the unmerciful servant is the most challenging parable in the Bible to me. God has forgiven me of so, so, so much!!! I have and I continue to hurt him so much. If I truly understand the love and mercy of God, how can I ever hold something against someone else? How can I not forgive freely? What possible reason could I ever have to hold a grudge? How can I let hurt feelings damage my relationships with others?
Most challenging of all? "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Reply to this
Vs 18 has me thinking. I am trying to see what is meant. Other translations say:
NTL
18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you forbid[f] on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit[g] on earth will be permitted in heaven.
MESSAGE
Take this most seriously: A yes on earth is yes in heaven; a no on earth is no in heaven. What you say to one another is eternal.
Then Jesus goes into the two or more in prayer scripture, so they must tie together. I am thinking we aught to be careful what we pray for and how we pray for it. Our prayers are binding in heaven as well as earth. yeses and noes are also binding in heaven. We should really put thought in to what we say on a regular basis, especially in prayer with one another.
Reply to this
Interesting point you make, Rich, about 'personal angels'. I never really thought that we had 'personal' ones looking over us. But, after re-reading the verse you mentioned (10), I now note it said 'their' angels...not just 'plain' angels. I have been looking at this for a bit, especially after people talk about angels having wings, as well as what this verse appears to indicate, 'personal' angels. It is true that angels exist...far too many verses explicitly state so. Some folks say that they have wings and fall back to chapter 1 in Ezekiel where he sees this strange vision with wheels, faces, wings, etc. If angels have wings, then they must also have four faces, wheels, and everything else envisioned by Ezekiel. And chapter 10 in that book also describes some weird things called cherubim. I have heard it said that they were a 'class' of angels. I'm not sure what they were, but they were NOT the angels to whom Jesus was referring in his story of the little children, I bet. Throughout the Bible, angels appeared as man (masculine, never feminine). And they also appeared as 'evil spirits', which Jesus and the Disciples were able to 'drive away'. There are just too many references to angels to go into here, but I found one excellent source which goes into this subject a lot---if interested, check out this work done by someone else already....really very interesting. http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t005.html
But, back to the ORIGINAL question. Most of you have heard MY Angel story, so I tend to lean toward personal angels, but then, if we all had them all the time, then everything would be peachy keen all the time, I mean, the angel(s) would always be there to 'do whatever angels do' (see that link on Scriptures that show WHAT they do). If we have personal ones, do we have more than one? Do they ALWAYS protect, warn, guide, etc, or only sometimes? Christians die from accidents all the time, as well as being killed and injured by others. So, where were their angels? I doubt they were 'taking a break', so stuff like this tends to make one think we don't have angels who look out for us all the time. Maybe on occasion, and maybe only when we 'need' it....but then, I go back to the untimely death of Christians, so I don't know. Maybe children as a whole have 'their' set of angels in Heaven. Maybe not. I am very intrigued over the Bible's use of these beings, but unfortunately, I doubt I will ever be confident in their real purposes until I meet one [mine?] in Heaven.
Rich...from yesterday..appreciate the kind words, BUT, 1-only two of those blogs were really mine...the other was a CNN story. And 2-I do this blog thing because it makes me feel better. It helps me to write out what I learn, think and experience about God; and I want to share it, that's all. I do NOT do it to 'amaze' ya'll....the original concept from Tony was simply a place to share ideas as we read the Bible in a structured manner. I like structure!!!!!
Reply to this
"For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Does that mean He is NOT there when ONE person 'comes together'? I wonder why He said it this way. I probably would have indicated that He was with anyONE, one or more, anytime, when he, she or they prayed. Does that indicate we NEED to get others to pray the same things we do, otherwise He won't listen? I don't think so, but this statement is confusing. Any comments from you praying warriors (one of my weaknesses, by the way)?
Reply to this
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm#v19">http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm#v19
14 [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the key of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts" (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm#v19">http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm#v19
matthew 16:19
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Just a couple things i found.... Matthew 18:18 is the churches discipline on removing someone from the church i think.
Reply to this
Hey Dusty (you don't mind if I call ya Dusty, do ya?)
Not sure how you got that idea from that Scripture. I see verse 18 as a warning to us to live righteous lives.
If you are really referring to verse 17 ("If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."), I would still have to disagree with you.
What does Jesus do with Gentiles and tax collectors? LOVES them. And, we should as well. He is using 'despicable' terms to the Jews here. The Gentiles did not believe in one God, THE ONE GOD, which the Jews did. They were always at odds. And the other despicable group of people, at least to the Jews, were the Jewish, yes, Jewish, tax collectors. They were known for being dishonest, collecting FROM THE JEWS, more tax than they owed, because they got to keep anything above what the Romans demanded that they were able to collect. Yes, very despicable people to the Jews. BUT, how do you handle despicable people? You love them. You pray for them. The example leading up to verse 17 is not a guide for the Church to 'remove' someone from the body of Christ, but to have patience with them EVEN AFTER THE CHURCH FAILED TO CONVINCE THEM. You must love them and pray for them, not cast them aside. Jesus never cast anyone aside. Even the Pharisees who were Jesus' biggest enemies were not caste from him. Remember Nicodemus? Remember Saul(Paul)? Both Pharisees!! No, LOVE them like Jesus did, even when rebuking them. See Timothy 4:2.
When church leaders think they can throw someone out of the body of Christ, they need to remember John 8:7.
Maybe you can isolate someone from meeting with the body because of his/her actions during those meetings (for the betterment of the others) temporarily, but men can not isolate that person from God, from the body of Christ. Jesus told His disciples to 'shake the dust of their shoes' if they are rejected. However, that didn't say to give up on the people.
We had a really great sermon on Sunday (visiting guest preacher) about this subject (not giving up on anyone). It'll be posted next week as an audio message at nlccga.org.....check it out later.
Reply to this
You can only call me Dusty if i can call you Grandma.
The statement is made to the Apostles, not to all Christians.
The previous verse gives us this information:
Matthew 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
This is the same "gift" given to Peter in Matthew 16:19: "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Jesus promised the Apostles a unique power, an authority to bind the new law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2). This promise, in Matthew 18, is to them specifically.
I took your words and now i constantly am searching for answers. This one had more scriptures to back its context. And you are right, we are supposed to love.
This was from a blog that someone else posted.
Sorry about the first post it came from a catholic churchs information site. probably why we had a different view of the verse.
I also read this "we search out the perfect church, but since we are not perfect; as soon as we join, the church is no longer perfect". I thought it was pretty good conserning us as sinners.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/binding.htm
Heres a rebuttal to the catholic church by a catholic
Reply to this
Dusty,
Yeah, the Catholic Church IS different. They have their methods, their doctrine and their traditions...many of which conflict directly with what Jesus was preaching (not all, but many). Traditions is the worst, I think, for them. Also, you might be surprised to learn that only until very recent history did the Roman Catholic church organization 'allow' its constituents to read the Bible...they were afraid there would be too many interpretations of God's Word, and some might be in conflict with their doctrine...imagine that. Can you imagine Paul, Peter, Timothy, or even Jesus, dressing in 'fine' purple robes with tassles and hats and silver cups and bowls and ....and... to conduct a service for God? Not hardly. That was what the Pharisees did, and we all know how Jesus looked at them. Jesus' church is a down to earth, so to speak, system of people who have come to Him for salvation. They didn't come to do rosaries, hail mary's or confession booths or things of that nature...they came to worship God during THEIR services. Traditions of man ruin worship, making it a show amongst men, rather than a meaningful, heart-fealt 'demonstration' to God Himself.
I LOVE to hear YOUR comments from what you gleaned from the Scriptures, before extra out-of-Bible research is done. THEN go to other sources to prove or disprove or support what YOUR thoughts were about specific Scriptures. That's what I try to do. I read the 'assignment', contemplate on what it means (or doesn't mean) to me. I write those thoughts down. Then I try to recall supporting/conflicting passages/stories/events in the Bible and look them up. Then I modify my original thoughts if necessary. Then, I go to my favorite 'library' of them all, the Internet. I admit I DO learn a lot from that source, but I always find myself going back to the Bible to see what was said on the electronic highway is supportable by what God says.
Keep up the good work.
Grandma.
Reply to this
I got stuck on 10,000 talents. As for trying to do a money exchange i am going to use my nkjv that has values for todays economy:
Gold talent = $5,760,000
silver talent = $384,000
10,000 x 5,760,000 = $57,600,000,000
10,000 x 384,000 = $3,840,000,000
also says that before the use of coins they were named after there weight:
Common talent = 75 pounds
royal talent = 150 pounds
So, honestly, could you say to your brother that you would forgive him of his debt if he owed you 57 billion dollars?
I would love to see what the founder of microsoft would say, or Donald Trump, or any of those rich guys.
I now have a much better understanding of these verses than before. Now that i know how much the master forgave the servant for. Just plain WOW. I think that i would have done the same thing as the master after i forgave him and the servant did what he did after.
Reply to this
Feel better?
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And who as this who didn't want to be known?
Reply to this