November 25, 2008 7:16 AM
Johnbob wrote:
I think that in the past, I have viewed Solomon as depressed or going through a mid-life crisis in regards to his writing style. He definitely appeared to have gone through that (as described in the previous chapters). But now I am more inclined to think that all his talk on 'meaningless' and 'injustice' is really painting a picture about perspective. It is all about perspective. A friend of mine and I were discussing the economy and the fact that two friend of ours have been laid off and that his business was not doing well. But his perspective (for now) is that this economy thing is good for him and our other friend - "it's good to shake things up every now and then" - what a great perspective in these troubling times.
Mac, you might have been right about how Solomon might have just written this in one sitting and how is mimics a book that is leading up to the main point of emphasis. It is a book of poetry after all - not sure if this is its darker chapters - we will see.
So in this chapter, Solomon continues his themes, but this time, it is a much darker comparison to a stillborn in v. 3-6. Our kids have all been healthy, but I have known people who have lost babies and it is emotionally wrenching. Jesus said the same thing but uses much plainer language. This language is graphic - about the baby being in darkness, not knowing anything - even his/her name is 'shrouded in darkness'. This stirs up emotion in me - I think that in the earlier chapters, he is more telling his story (his projects, his harem, etc.), observations about injustice, throwing in some proverbs, lessons about God, etc. Even though he mentions death in chapter 4 and then mentions loneliness, chapter 6, v.3-6 really tries to reach out to your emotions. He is saying to me "If you haven't gotten the points about having the right perspective so far, hopefully this will help." Reply to this
November 25, 2008 8:23 AM
Sam wrote:
JB. Yes, JB....as HAL says in 2001, A Space Odyssey, 'my mind is going, Dave' (or JB, or even JF--whereever THAT came from!). So, yes, it is 'the JB' I would like to (re?)meet....probably will remember your face once I see you, but names have always eluded me. BUT, now, back into Ecclesiastes, chapter 6. "Oh my, oh my, oh my! Woe to man, woe to me." Solomon sure IS painting a dark picture here, JB. I think he needs a treatment of Lexapro or Prozac. How can one state that a still born baby is more fortunate than someone who has been given the great gift of life by the great master of life Himself? Even bad days are better than no days, as far as I am concerned. Sure, maybe the baby is in heaven, and maybe not. Now, THAT's a concept for discussion some day.....what kind of existance in heaven does an aborted or still born child have? But, not to get too morbid like Solomon, I want to look at the GOOD in life, that the glass is half FULL, rather than looking at the negative. Solomon writes that all of man's efforts are for his mouth, but he is never satisfied. I disagree. A LOT of good Christians put plenty of effort for OTHERS, not just one's self. Sure, we are all greedy and prideful at some varying level--even varying from minute to minute or day to day, but I dare say, not EVERYTHING we do is for ourselves. If you tithe, you do for others. If you evangelize and spread the word of God, you do it for others. If you show hospitality and supply time and meals to others, you are not doing it solely for yourself. If you care for your children or spouse properly, you do it for them, not yourself. One who feeds only himself, his own mouth, does not love. And I know lots of people who love. No, Solomon, I don't agree. NOW, if you, Solomon, are talking in riddles, or parables, that is something different, but so far, your ranting seems to show a lack of synapses. Living a life for God is not meaningless, it is not unrewarding, as Solomon seems to suggest. I pity the poor child who was not given the opportunity to see the sun, breath the air, walk the earth, swim in the water, be held by a mother, be taught baseball by a father. To love and be loved by someone else. No, a still born is NOT better off. As you look around your life today, JB, I think you might agree with me...that life IS good, even if our situations are not. You talked about the economy...yes, its not really great right now, but when we look around and see what we DO have, it is amazing to me. We have food, clothing, and shelter. If there are people around Atlanta who do not, there are enough non-Solomons who will love those persons enough to supply these three basic 'needs'. Joblessness is more common lately, but so is love for those who lose those jobs. As Solomon closes this chapter he says that our lives are very short...that may be true, but we can 'stretch' them by doing positive things in each day, hour, or minute. How might you stretch your life? Reply to this
November 25, 2008 9:20 AM
Danielle Board wrote:
Well, I disagree with Solomon because God will give you something you love and you will have time to enjoy it. Also there are some people that get something they like and not have time to enjoy it.I also think that life is not meaningless we were born for a purpose and everyone has a purpose in life. Reply to this
November 25, 2008 9:39 AM
Tony wrote:
I would disagree with Solomon. God gives us all that we need yet some are still not happy, some still want more. Material possession and money do not make one happy and full. Knowing God, having family and friends and enjoying life is how you live. We cannot worry about the troubles of this world as all it will do is make you want to kill yourself. These are some troubled times that we are in, the wealth is disappearing and people are loosing heart. I agree with his analogy of being stillborn. What is life if you have a hundred children, you live to be very old yet you find no satisfaction in life and you do not get a decent burial. (NLT translation) Verse 9," Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don’t have. Just dreaming about nice things is meaningless—like chasing the wind." How often do we do this? How often are we great full to have a roof over our heads in this day and age? 900,000 foreclosures last year! Unemployment at a record high, people worried if they will still have a job tomorrow. God will provide, He always has and He always will Be happy with what we have or it too will be taken away! Verse 10," Everything has already been decided" If this is true then how can we decide to follow God? Are we talking predestination here? Reply to this
November 25, 2008 9:51 AM
Johnbob wrote:
Thanks for the post Tony. It is interesting that 3 of the posts today 'disagree' with Solomon. What say ye, Rick and Rich? Reply to this
November 25, 2008 9:57 AM
Sam wrote:
And you, JB? Disagree? Or is he speaking in such a way that he is getting his point across by using exaggerations? Jesus did that (Camel-eye of needle)..He exaggerated to make a point. Is this what Solomon is doing? Or is he of full belief of his statements? Reply to this
November 25, 2008 10:10 AM
Johnbob wrote:
I am not sure that I disagree, per se. The question for me is "how do we match what Solomon is saying so far in Ecclessiastes with our experiences, emotions, and the rest of the Bible?" We can't say that it is just not true, though I think there is definitely room to 'disagree' in the sense that this is a book of poetry rather than a book of law. There are general truths here instead of hard truths. It's like that scripture "Teach a child in the way he should go and when his old, he will not stray from it." That is a general truth. Our experience says that this is not true all the time. I have known some incredible parents, very wise, very giving, very spiritual - yet their kids chose not to be christians. I have known some real 'slackers', even really bad divorces, and their kids somehow turn out great, get baptized etc.
So I would probably say the 'hard truths' so far are don't place too much meaning in being fulfilled by things, don't go chasing jobs, food, projects, sin, etc. and think you will be fulfilled, and don't be fooled by the people who have riches because that is no guarantee that they have happiness. You should feel more sorry for them than for the parents of a stillborn child. I also think it points us toward thinking a whole lot more about things that matter for eternity than about things here on earth.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now. Reply to this
November 26, 2008 10:09 AM
Tony wrote:
I totally agree with you. My thoughts were that people try to fill a void in their life with material goods. It just doesn't work. The more junk that you get the lonelier you feel. People who have allot of money and big empty houses are not happy most times. Parties only last so long and most of those people are not true friends. True friends come when their is no party, when their is no glamor. Reply to this
I think that in the past, I have viewed Solomon as depressed or going through a mid-life crisis in regards to his writing style. He definitely appeared to have gone through that (as described in the previous chapters). But now I am more inclined to think that all his talk on 'meaningless' and 'injustice' is really painting a picture about perspective. It is all about perspective. A friend of mine and I were discussing the economy and the fact that two friend of ours have been laid off and that his business was not doing well. But his perspective (for now) is that this economy thing is good for him and our other friend - "it's good to shake things up every now and then" - what a great perspective in these troubling times.
Mac, you might have been right about how Solomon might have just written this in one sitting and how is mimics a book that is leading up to the main point of emphasis. It is a book of poetry after all - not sure if this is its darker chapters - we will see.
So in this chapter, Solomon continues his themes, but this time, it is a much darker comparison to a stillborn in v. 3-6. Our kids have all been healthy, but I have known people who have lost babies and it is emotionally wrenching. Jesus said the same thing but uses much plainer language. This language is graphic - about the baby being in darkness, not knowing anything - even his/her name is 'shrouded in darkness'. This stirs up emotion in me - I think that in the earlier chapters, he is more telling his story (his projects, his harem, etc.), observations about injustice, throwing in some proverbs, lessons about God, etc. Even though he mentions death in chapter 4 and then mentions loneliness, chapter 6, v.3-6 really tries to reach out to your emotions. He is saying to me "If you haven't gotten the points about having the right perspective so far, hopefully this will help."
Reply to this
JB. Yes, JB....as HAL says in 2001, A Space Odyssey, 'my mind is going, Dave' (or JB, or even JF--whereever THAT came from!).
So, yes, it is 'the JB' I would like to (re?)meet....probably will remember your face once I see you, but names have always eluded me.
BUT, now, back into Ecclesiastes, chapter 6. "Oh my, oh my, oh my! Woe to man, woe to me." Solomon sure IS painting a dark picture here, JB. I think he needs a treatment of Lexapro or Prozac. How can one state that a still born baby is more fortunate than someone who has been given the great gift of life by the great master of life Himself? Even bad days are better than no days, as far as I am concerned. Sure, maybe the baby is in heaven, and maybe not. Now, THAT's a concept for discussion some day.....what kind of existance in heaven does an aborted or still born child have? But, not to get too morbid like Solomon, I want to look at the GOOD in life, that the glass is half FULL, rather than looking at the negative.
Solomon writes that all of man's efforts are for his mouth, but he is never satisfied. I disagree. A LOT of good Christians put plenty of effort for OTHERS, not just one's self. Sure, we are all greedy and prideful at some varying level--even varying from minute to minute or day to day, but I dare say, not EVERYTHING we do is for ourselves. If you tithe, you do for others. If you evangelize and spread the word of God, you do it for others. If you show hospitality and supply time and meals to others, you are not doing it solely for yourself. If you care for your children or spouse properly, you do it for them, not yourself. One who feeds only himself, his own mouth, does not love. And I know lots of people who love. No, Solomon, I don't agree. NOW, if you, Solomon, are talking in riddles, or parables, that is something different, but so far, your ranting seems to show a lack of synapses. Living a life for God is not meaningless, it is not unrewarding, as Solomon seems to suggest.
I pity the poor child who was not given the opportunity to see the sun, breath the air, walk the earth, swim in the water, be held by a mother, be taught baseball by a father. To love and be loved by someone else. No, a still born is NOT better off.
As you look around your life today, JB, I think you might agree with me...that life IS good, even if our situations are not. You talked about the economy...yes, its not really great right now, but when we look around and see what we DO have, it is amazing to me. We have food, clothing, and shelter. If there are people around Atlanta who do not, there are enough non-Solomons who will love those persons enough to supply these three basic 'needs'. Joblessness is more common lately, but so is love for those who lose those jobs. As Solomon closes this chapter he says that our lives are very short...that may be true, but we can 'stretch' them by doing positive things in each day, hour, or minute. How might you stretch your life?
Reply to this
Well, I disagree with Solomon because God will give you something you love and you will have time to enjoy it. Also there are some people that get something they like and not have time to enjoy it.I also think that life is not meaningless we were born for a purpose and everyone has a purpose in life.
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Daniell Board, age 11
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Go Danielle!
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I would disagree with Solomon. God gives us all that we need yet some are still not happy, some still want more. Material possession and money do not make one happy and full. Knowing God, having family and friends and enjoying life is how you live. We cannot worry about the troubles of this world as all it will do is make you want to kill yourself. These are some troubled times that we are in, the wealth is disappearing and people are loosing heart.
I agree with his analogy of being stillborn. What is life if you have a hundred children, you live to be very old yet you find no satisfaction in life and you do not get a decent burial. (NLT translation)
Verse 9," Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don’t have. Just dreaming about nice things is meaningless—like chasing the wind."
How often do we do this? How often are we great full to have a roof over our heads in this day and age? 900,000 foreclosures last year! Unemployment at a record high, people worried if they will still have a job tomorrow. God will provide, He always has and He always will Be happy with what we have or it too will be taken away! Verse 10," Everything has already been decided" If this is true then how can we decide to follow God? Are we talking predestination here?
Reply to this
Thanks for the post Tony. It is interesting that 3 of the posts today 'disagree' with Solomon. What say ye, Rick and Rich?
Reply to this
And you, JB? Disagree? Or is he speaking in such a way that he is getting his point across by using exaggerations? Jesus did that (Camel-eye of needle)..He exaggerated to make a point. Is this what Solomon is doing? Or is he of full belief of his statements?
Reply to this
I am not sure that I disagree, per se. The question for me is "how do we match what Solomon is saying so far in Ecclessiastes with our experiences, emotions, and the rest of the Bible?" We can't say that it is just not true, though I think there is definitely room to 'disagree' in the sense that this is a book of poetry rather than a book of law. There are general truths here instead of hard truths. It's like that scripture "Teach a child in the way he should go and when his old, he will not stray from it." That is a general truth. Our experience says that this is not true all the time. I have known some incredible parents, very wise, very giving, very spiritual - yet their kids chose not to be christians. I have known some real 'slackers', even really bad divorces, and their kids somehow turn out great, get baptized etc.
So I would probably say the 'hard truths' so far are don't place too much meaning in being fulfilled by things, don't go chasing jobs, food, projects, sin, etc. and think you will be fulfilled, and don't be fooled by the people who have riches because that is no guarantee that they have happiness. You should feel more sorry for them than for the parents of a stillborn child. I also think it points us toward thinking a whole lot more about things that matter for eternity than about things here on earth.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now.
Reply to this
I totally agree with you. My thoughts were that people try to fill a void in their life with material goods. It just doesn't work. The more junk that you get the lonelier you feel. People who have allot of money and big empty houses are not happy most times. Parties only last so long and most of those people are not true friends. True friends come when their is no party, when their is no glamor.
Reply to this