October 31, 2008 6:14 AM
Sam wrote:
Mothers. None of us would be here if not for them. King Lemuel learned a bit from HIS mother, as told in this Oracle (a wise saying/expression). First she tells her son Lemmy---I assume she called him this---Lemuel sounds to formal, and unless a mom is maddened by the son, she usually has a more affectionate nickname (my mom called me Den, but when I did something she didn't like, it was DENNIS!!! (my REAL name)...Dad called me Mac....I picked up the Sam alias a few years ago.)-anyway I digress.....let me start this statement over so you won't have to go back to the start of it to reread to get your thoughts in line.
First, she tells her son Lemmy not to mess around with (wayward) women...pretty good advice!. Next, she warned him about wind and beer (the drugs of the day). Thirdly, she tells her loved son to help others (speak for, speak up for, judge fairly, defend). Normally, this, I would think would be the advice of a Father. Perhaps Lemmy's father was a King as well and didn't take time for his family. Perhaps his dad didn't believe in God as his mom obviously did. Perhaps he was the product of a single mom and his dad may have not been her husband. Who knows? But, at least one of his parents gave him some great advice.
Next, from verses 10 through 31, Mommy Dearest (I am sure Lemmy also had affectionate names for his mother), described what she called a 'wife of noble character'. Perhaps this is what she was like (I would hope to think so---so she would be teaching by example rather than by the 'do what I say, not what I do' concept).
These verses are often used in 'discipling' women in churches. ALthough it is a very high plateau for a wife to reach, many do. No matter if your wife 'grasps the spindle with her fingers' and works laboriously each day, the true meaning of a beautiful wife is summed up in verse 30(b): "..but a woman who fears (loves) the Lord is to be praised." For those that do, verse 31 is the advice for the husband.
Now, husbands....take these same verse which talk about a noble wife, and go through it and substitute the word 'husband' for the word 'wife', and 'he' for 'she', and so forth. How do YOU measure up? "A husband of noble character who can find?"
Tomorrow, 1 November, we are going to delve into the book of Exodus...we'll do the first 20 chapters, and following that for the last ten days, we'll do the 12 chapters in Ecclesiastes (we'll do a coupla chapters a coupla days so we'll finish 'on time'). (I am stopping at chapter 20 in Exodus as the remaining basically discuss the laws imposed during Moses' time and also the in-detailed explanations of how to make the Tabernacle, lampstands, Ark, etc). Hope you will enjoy and learn and share a lot during the month of November.
October 31, 2008 7:27 AM
Johnbob wrote:
Aaah. Proverbs 31. The one about the importance of being a Proverbs 31 man. Did I say man? I meant… well, yes, I meant ‘man’. If you read between the lines, you will see lots of things about being a Proverbs 31 Man.
10 [c] A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. As Don Henley put it, Don’t you draw the queen of diamonds (rubies?), boy She’ll beat you if she’s able. You know the queen of heats is always your best bet
11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. Instead of being critical and doubting her, exploit what she is good at. Don’t think about the things you don’t have or that your neighbor has. Think about how valuable it is to have a great wife – how truly rare it is.
13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. No soap operas for this wife!!! I know that this verse and the following verses are partly due to here noble character, but also partly because her husband let her be that way – not trying to control everything – dare I say ‘trusting her’
16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. Her husband let her do what? This sounds progressive even for today – how much more for back then?
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. I have seen other wives who just looked rough, worn down, discouraged, self loathing instead of self confident – usually it is because the husband is not around or has checked out mentally/emotionally. I know she gets strength and dignity from her hard work and success, but the presumption here is that she has a great marriage and a loving husband
26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. This is a great barometer regarding your wife’s happiness – What does your wife talk about the most. Is she a complainer, is she harsh, is she a doubter, is she shallow, etc. Or does she speak faithfully and instruct wisely?
27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Again, no soap operas for this sister! I am sure this is of her own accord, but I can see a husband playing a role as well.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: How do your children talk to your wife? Are they respectful? Maybe it is because they don’t hear the husband leading the way?
29 "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all." Is this the husband talking? You mean he is not criticizing, thinking ‘I wish my wife was this or that’? How often do you praise your wife? I am convicted.
31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate. Come on brothers. Think about this one. Your wife probably deserves a reward. And it is probably (definitely?) not the same ‘reward’ we men would choose!!! Put some thought into this one and come up with a good reward for having to put up with you!!! Reply to this
October 31, 2008 8:47 AM
rik wrote:
The wife of noble character- Why do we love our wives? what is it about them that makes us love them? Take a minute to write three things about your wife that made you fall in love with her.... Reply to this
October 31, 2008 9:25 AM
rik wrote:
Ok, the list you wrote could also the problem in your marriage. How, you might ask? when your spouse stops emitting these characteristics you can begin to loose interest in her. Your basis of love is based on the conditions you stated (your list). that is conditional love, and conditional love will fade. If you have ever said, or thought "I just don't love my wife any more" the truth is you might not have ever loved her in the first place. Or maybe you have forgotten the Love God showed you. The love we, as men of God, need to show our wives is the same love God shows us, that is unconditional love. Here is a trust worthy saying "love is not determined by the one being love but rather by the one choosing to love". this is 'agape' love. This is how God chooses to love us even when we do not show the characteristics of our early years of our marriage to him through Christ. If we lack the zeal of our youth, the passion we once had, the faith based on trusting in Him, when we lack these qualities ( and they definitely come and go) God does not stop loving us, in fact he pours out even more love for us. This is what helps get back the qualities of our youth, His commitment to us. (it is called grace) weather your wife is being a Proverbs 31 wife or not should not alter your love for her.
this is a overview of day 10 in the love dare book. (and they did a much better job explaining it then I) It is a great challenge to men who understand what God did for them.
October 31, 2008 9:26 AM
Rich wrote:
Great points JB - I thought much the same. If my wife is not what is described in Proverbs 31, I have only myself to blame. Call me sexist if you want, but I truly believe that God made women different from us. He made them so that what is described in this chapter is what makes them happy.
The world tells our wives a much different story. The world tells them that happiness is found in power, money, advancement in a career, not having children, shopping, equality, and such. But they do not find true happiness in these things because that is not how God made them. God made them to find fulfillment in Proverbs 31 activities.
How does this apply to us as husbands? What message is your wife hearing more powerfully? The message of the world? Or the message from God? Where will she hear the message from God if not from those closest to her? Mainly from her husband! From you (and from me). I am very convicted here. I need to praise and affirm to my wife her "successes" in the house, with the children, in caring for me, in contributing to our household success, in setting the tone of happiness and fun in our house, in all of the many, many things that she does "naturally." I need to praise her for any time she does ANYTHING listed in Proverbs 31 and my praise for her needs to be much more powerful than the praise she gets in the world. The same is true for any daughters any of us have. Praise and affirmation for what they do will lead to more doing of the same.
Lastly, who am I to ever say to my wife, "you are not the Proverbs 31 woman." There is a COMMAND to us as husbands that each of us must tattoo to our hearts and minds. Maybe some day all of us should get together to discuss Ephesians 5: 25-27: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
It would be great for all of us to talk about what this passage means in practice. How can we make this passage a reality in our lives? I would love to hear from all of you how I can do this. I want my wife to be radiant. I want her to be happy. I want her to be fulfilled. I want her to be spiritual. I want her to be what God wants her to be and I want her to go to heaven. I need help and as JB said yesterday, getting help in our marriage is tough (humbling?) but necessary. Reply to this
October 31, 2008 9:36 AM
rik wrote:
Awesome stuff! My wife talks a lot about the value she feels from an outside job, and that is because people say thank you for a job well done. I do not thank my wife nearly enough! I have started to thank her more lately but it is still weak in comparison to how I should be thanking her. Thank you rich. Reply to this
October 31, 2008 10:29 AM
Tony wrote:
I have often thanked my wife or given her a compliment over the years only to get, "whatever, your crazy , no I'm not, you fill in the blank". We talked about it the other day and I asked her why she could not just accept a compliment and say thank you. Last night she came into the living room after taking a bath in her pajamas. I was laying on the couch, I looked up at her and the lighting was just right and I told her, you look beautiful. She said whatever and walked away. Makes you want to quit giving compliments. But I said to her " what did we talk about the other day" and she said " oh yea, thanks". She was laughing when she said it. Sometimes we may need to talk with our wives about our feelings, I know we are guys and we don't have feelings. BULL. Real men do cry and real men do have feelings. If we don't tell our wives how we feel, how can they know. This is one simple word that works in every aspect of life, communication Reply to this
October 31, 2008 11:30 AM
Sam wrote:
LITTLE THINGS! THAT's what makes a woman feel loved. I bought a very simple Halloween card for my wife...no gift, no big celebration, just a simple card of love. She DID love it. I try extra hard to do this quite often. A card for any holiday, not matter what, and sometimes a card JUST to say I Love You.
You don't have to do the Love Challenge to make your wife feel special (alhtough I am glad Rick is attempting it---how IS that going, anyway?)...Do simple acts of love. Reply to this
October 31, 2008 5:45 PM
rik wrote:
Mac, you are the first to encourage us to read this book or check out that article, and you want us to do it because it will help our relationship with God. It is true you do not have to do the Love Dare, but I promise you are missing out. This book will wake your senses. It has one scripture ref after another. It challenges you to be the husband God wants you to be. 15 bucks seems a small price to pay.
I liken it to a football player that is Ok with just being in the NFL, and do not get me wrong that is a great accomplishment, but for a football player to take it to another level and be a pro bowler, and a superbowl contender year in and year out, there is extra film study, weight training, it just takes another level of focus. I want to win superbowls for my wife. Some teams need more film study and practice then others. Reply to this
October 31, 2008 6:18 PM
joe wrote:
v.8 Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves... - v.9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy. In perspective, this is how I see the state of my family in view of the world. It is my heart's desire to participate with the Father to protect my wife from the evil one.
Father loves order. We have been given a position of leadership, non-condensending's and equal to, yet with power to lead through Christ. We even have power to veto words and vows made by our wives and daughters to save them from suffering for the words from their mouths.
There was a time that I went so far as to place verses on my refrigerator to combat the negative words being spoken in our home - and listened to in today's music. Negative words that hindered our prayers.
~13yrs. ago when my wife and I visited the International Church of Christ in MI., it was a glorious day. Unfortunately, this was also a time when advice was given w/o wisdom. Much pain...much confusion. This time in my life I asked the Father why He would put us on this earth with so many faults then punish us for failing. I asked Father to either take me out or fix me. The scary part on my end - He allowed me to fall hard and fast.
The point - It is amazing how your perspective of those in your circle and yourself changes when you realize just who "really" is in control. A perfect Father that allows us to participate in His promises. not because we are successful in obeying His laws but because He loves us so.
Persevering and staying positive through the valley then He promises to poor His Love into our hearts.
Only then am I able to truly love my Lord, myself, others, family in the way that is pleasing to Him. After eating spiritual food, praying for the HS to guide me in every way, staying positive during.., and having a clear conscience; I am able to pray to desire my wife more, fall deeply in love with her on a daily basis, love her in a way pleasing to Him.
Guess what...Father kept His promises even when I failed. On a daily basis I have to keep from thinking too highly of myself. Even my good is filthy w/o Father. Can we dare think we could actually be pleasing to Father and those our circle w/o Him. Though we walk through the valley we see more of ourselves then try to remove the crap that floats to the top - w/o success. Turn it over to Father.
Psalm 34:6 This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles. Reply to this
Mothers. None of us would be here if not for them. King Lemuel learned a bit from HIS mother, as told in this Oracle (a wise saying/expression). First she tells her son Lemmy---I assume she called him this---Lemuel sounds to formal, and unless a mom is maddened by the son, she usually has a more affectionate nickname (my mom called me Den, but when I did something she didn't like, it was DENNIS!!! (my REAL name)...Dad called me Mac....I picked up the Sam alias a few years ago.)-anyway I digress.....let me start this statement over so you won't have to go back to the start of it to reread to get your thoughts in line.
First, she tells her son Lemmy not to mess around with (wayward) women...pretty good advice!. Next, she warned him about wind and beer (the drugs of the day). Thirdly, she tells her loved son to help others (speak for, speak up for, judge fairly, defend). Normally, this, I would think would be the advice of a Father. Perhaps Lemmy's father was a King as well and didn't take time for his family. Perhaps his dad didn't believe in God as his mom obviously did. Perhaps he was the product of a single mom and his dad may have not been her husband. Who knows? But, at least one of his parents gave him some great advice.
Next, from verses 10 through 31, Mommy Dearest (I am sure Lemmy also had affectionate names for his mother), described what she called a 'wife of noble character'. Perhaps this is what she was like (I would hope to think so---so she would be teaching by example rather than by the 'do what I say, not what I do' concept).
These verses are often used in 'discipling' women in churches. ALthough it is a very high plateau for a wife to reach, many do. No matter if your wife 'grasps the spindle with her fingers' and works laboriously each day, the true meaning of a beautiful wife is summed up in verse 30(b): "..but a woman who fears (loves) the Lord is to be praised." For those that do, verse 31 is the advice for the husband.
Now, husbands....take these same verse which talk about a noble wife, and go through it and substitute the word 'husband' for the word 'wife', and 'he' for 'she', and so forth. How do YOU measure up? "A husband of noble character who can find?"
Tomorrow, 1 November, we are going to delve into the book of Exodus...we'll do the first 20 chapters, and following that for the last ten days, we'll do the 12 chapters in Ecclesiastes (we'll do a coupla chapters a coupla days so we'll finish 'on time'). (I am stopping at chapter 20 in Exodus as the remaining basically discuss the laws imposed during Moses' time and also the in-detailed explanations of how to make the Tabernacle, lampstands, Ark, etc). Hope you will enjoy and learn and share a lot during the month of November.
Sam, Den, Dennis, Mac
Reply to this
Aaah. Proverbs 31. The one about the importance of being a Proverbs 31 man. Did I say man? I meant… well, yes, I meant ‘man’. If you read between the lines, you will see lots of things about being a Proverbs 31 Man.
10 [c] A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.
As Don Henley put it,
Don’t you draw the queen of diamonds (rubies?), boy She’ll beat you if she’s able. You know the queen of heats is always your best bet
11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
Instead of being critical and doubting her, exploit what she is good at.
Don’t think about the things you don’t have or that your neighbor has.
Think about how valuable it is to have a great wife – how truly rare it is.
13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands.
No soap operas for this wife!!! I know that this verse and the following verses are partly due to here noble character, but also partly because her husband let her be that way – not trying to control everything – dare I say ‘trusting her’
16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
Her husband let her do what? This sounds progressive even for today – how much more for back then?
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
I have seen other wives who just looked rough, worn down, discouraged, self loathing instead of self confident – usually it is because the husband is not around or has checked out mentally/emotionally. I know she gets strength and dignity from her hard work and success, but the presumption here is that she has a great marriage and a loving husband
26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
This is a great barometer regarding your wife’s happiness – What does your wife talk about the most. Is she a complainer, is she harsh, is she a doubter, is she shallow, etc. Or does she speak faithfully and instruct wisely?
27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
Again, no soap operas for this sister! I am sure this is of her own accord, but I can see a husband playing a role as well.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:
How do your children talk to your wife? Are they respectful? Maybe it is because they don’t hear the husband leading the way?
29 "Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all."
Is this the husband talking? You mean he is not criticizing, thinking ‘I wish my wife was this or that’? How often do you praise your wife? I am convicted.
31 Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
Come on brothers. Think about this one. Your wife probably deserves a reward. And it is probably (definitely?) not the same ‘reward’ we men would choose!!! Put some thought into this one and come up with a good reward for having to put up with you!!!
Reply to this
The wife of noble character- Why do we love our wives? what is it about them that makes us love them? Take a minute to write three things about your wife that made you fall in love with her....
Reply to this
Ok, the list you wrote could also the problem in your marriage. How, you might ask? when your spouse stops emitting these characteristics you can begin to loose interest in her. Your basis of love is based on the conditions you stated (your list). that is conditional love, and conditional love will fade. If you have ever said, or thought "I just don't love my wife any more" the truth is you might not have ever loved her in the first place. Or maybe you have forgotten the Love God showed you. The love we, as men of God, need to show our wives is the same love God shows us, that is unconditional love. Here is a trust worthy saying "love is not determined by the one being love but rather by the one choosing to love". this is 'agape' love. This is how God chooses to love us even when we do not show the characteristics of our early years of our marriage to him through Christ. If we lack the zeal of our youth, the passion we once had, the faith based on trusting in Him, when we lack these qualities ( and they definitely come and go) God does not stop loving us, in fact he pours out even more love for us. This is what helps get back the qualities of our youth, His commitment to us. (it is called grace) weather your wife is being a Proverbs 31 wife or not should not alter your love for her.
this is a overview of day 10 in the love dare book. (and they did a much better job explaining it then I) It is a great challenge to men who understand what God did for them.
Do not follow your heart, LEAD IT!
Reply to this
Great points JB - I thought much the same. If my wife is not what is described in Proverbs 31, I have only myself to blame. Call me sexist if you want, but I truly believe that God made women different from us. He made them so that what is described in this chapter is what makes them happy.
The world tells our wives a much different story. The world tells them that happiness is found in power, money, advancement in a career, not having children, shopping, equality, and such. But they do not find true happiness in these things because that is not how God made them. God made them to find fulfillment in Proverbs 31 activities.
How does this apply to us as husbands? What message is your wife hearing more powerfully? The message of the world? Or the message from God? Where will she hear the message from God if not from those closest to her? Mainly from her husband! From you (and from me). I am very convicted here. I need to praise and affirm to my wife her "successes" in the house, with the children, in caring for me, in contributing to our household success, in setting the tone of happiness and fun in our house, in all of the many, many things that she does "naturally." I need to praise her for any time she does ANYTHING listed in Proverbs 31 and my praise for her needs to be much more powerful than the praise she gets in the world. The same is true for any daughters any of us have. Praise and affirmation for what they do will lead to more doing of the same.
Lastly, who am I to ever say to my wife, "you are not the Proverbs 31 woman." There is a COMMAND to us as husbands that each of us must tattoo to our hearts and minds. Maybe some day all of us should get together to discuss Ephesians 5: 25-27: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
It would be great for all of us to talk about what this passage means in practice. How can we make this passage a reality in our lives? I would love to hear from all of you how I can do this. I want my wife to be radiant. I want her to be happy. I want her to be fulfilled. I want her to be spiritual. I want her to be what God wants her to be and I want her to go to heaven. I need help and as JB said yesterday, getting help in our marriage is tough (humbling?) but necessary.
Reply to this
Awesome stuff! My wife talks a lot about the value she feels from an outside job, and that is because people say thank you for a job well done. I do not thank my wife nearly enough! I have started to thank her more lately but it is still weak in comparison to how I should be thanking her. Thank you rich.
Reply to this
I have often thanked my wife or given her a compliment over the years only to get, "whatever, your crazy , no I'm not, you fill in the blank". We talked about it the other day and I asked her why she could not just accept a compliment and say thank you. Last night she came into the living room after taking a bath in her pajamas. I was laying on the couch, I looked up at her and the lighting was just right and I told her, you look beautiful. She said whatever and walked away. Makes you want to quit giving compliments. But I said to her " what did we talk about the other day" and she said " oh yea, thanks". She was laughing when she said it. Sometimes we may need to talk with our wives about our feelings, I know we are guys and we don't have feelings. BULL. Real men do cry and real men do have feelings. If we don't tell our wives how we feel, how can they know. This is one simple word that works in every aspect of life, communication
Reply to this
LITTLE THINGS!
THAT's what makes a woman feel loved. I bought a very simple Halloween card for my wife...no gift, no big celebration, just a simple card of love. She DID love it. I try extra hard to do this quite often. A card for any holiday, not matter what, and sometimes a card JUST to say I Love You.
You don't have to do the Love Challenge to make your wife feel special (alhtough I am glad Rick is attempting it---how IS that going, anyway?)...Do simple acts of love.
Reply to this
Mac, you are the first to encourage us to read this book or check out that article, and you want us to do it because it will help our relationship with God. It is true you do not have to do the Love Dare, but I promise you are missing out. This book will wake your senses. It has one scripture ref after another. It challenges you to be the husband God wants you to be. 15 bucks seems a small price to pay.
I liken it to a football player that is Ok with just being in the NFL, and do not get me wrong that is a great accomplishment, but for a football player to take it to another level and be a pro bowler, and a superbowl contender year in and year out, there is extra film study, weight training, it just takes another level of focus. I want to win superbowls for my wife. Some teams need more film study and practice then others.
Reply to this
I have the book
Reply to this
v.8 Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves... - v.9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy. In perspective, this is how I see the state of my family in view of the world. It is my heart's desire to participate with the Father to protect my wife from the evil one.
Father loves order. We have been given a position of leadership, non-condensending's and equal to, yet with power to lead through Christ. We even have power to veto words and vows made by our wives and daughters to save them from suffering for the words from their mouths.
There was a time that I went so far as to place verses on my refrigerator to combat the negative words being spoken in our home - and listened to in today's music. Negative words that hindered our prayers.
~13yrs. ago when my wife and I visited the International Church of Christ in MI., it was a glorious day. Unfortunately, this was also a time when advice was given w/o wisdom. Much pain...much confusion. This time in my life I asked the Father why He would put us on this earth with so many faults then punish us for failing. I asked Father to either take me out or fix me. The scary part on my end - He allowed me to fall hard and fast.
The point - It is amazing how your perspective of those in your circle and yourself changes when you realize just who "really" is in control. A perfect Father that allows us to participate in His promises. not because we are successful in obeying His laws but because He loves us so.
Persevering and staying positive through the valley then He promises to poor His Love into our hearts.
Only then am I able to truly love my Lord, myself, others, family in the way that is pleasing to Him. After eating spiritual food, praying for the HS to guide me in every way, staying positive during.., and having a clear conscience; I am able to pray to desire my wife more, fall deeply in love with her on a daily basis, love her in a way pleasing to Him.
Guess what...Father kept His promises even when I failed. On a daily basis I have to keep from thinking too highly of myself. Even my good is filthy w/o Father. Can we dare think we could actually be pleasing to Father and those our circle w/o Him. Though we walk through the valley we see more of ourselves then try to remove the crap that floats to the top - w/o success. Turn it over to Father.
Psalm 34:6
This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles.
Reply to this