January 29, 2008 7:36 AM
Sam wrote:
Revelation 4. NIV titled, A Throne in Heaven. Okay, admittedly Rik, this is where this book starts getting a little 'weird'. But look BEYOND the strange images and take this short chapter as simply John's initial meeting with Jesus (as God) in Heaven. No matter what it looked like to him, it will probably appear differently to us. I don't even know what jasper and carnelian are! No, look at this as simply John's view of meeting Christ in the afterlife. Don't get hung up on the "24", or even the "7". Ignore all that and look at the chapter in general. What do we 'see'? A bunch of strange characters praising God, joined by a group of elders. Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing here in our "heaven on Earth"---God's Kingdom---the church? Certainly. Look around you. There are plenty of strange 'creatures' worshipping God (and several not doing so as well). As Christians, we may even appear to those 'other creatures' as strange. We certainly have 'strange ideas', some will say. But that is okay. Strange looking, weird acting, as we may be, we should be worhipping God for who He is. He is the creator of all things, as the elders said in this chapter. Some day we will all, I hope, get a chance to see this throne to which John refers. But in the meantime, look to our church as the throne of God here on earth. Because of His wondrous gifts He has let us have, our hearts should be turned to be like those creatures with eyes all over their bodies, and we should be thanking (worshipping) the God we know yet cannot yet see. When we take this book for face value, a chunk at a time, it is not that daunting, nor that mysterious. I have terribly missed Tony's comments, as he had been getting pretty 'deep' lately. Please pray for him to be able to find the time and desire to put this blog in his life as a daily habit. Rich...a confession. I like reading your thoughts, confessions and comments...I am learning a lot about you and God. However, I fairly skimmed over the stuff you brought in from that site the other day. I KNOW it is good stuff, and if I had read it, I might have understood the chapter a bit better. BUT, I seem to grow closer to you through YOUR words and thoughts. Occasionally I will go to websites to get the thoughts of others on certain stuff, but other than putting in a quote or two, I preferred to write what "I" got from what they said. That way, I am letting you guys know what I learned, and passed it on to you in the Readers' Digest version (although I do get very verbose on occasion). Any, I look forward to seeing everybody's thoughts and comments, as they help me learn; they help me get to know you better; and they also help me to teach. And that is what we are supposed to be doing with the Word...teaching others. I don't know if any of you have contacted Socorro yet to let her know if you will be coming to my birthday party this Sunday or not, but if you haven't, please contact her so she can plan. Reply to this
I tried to understand this word in its text and I am having trouble. I do not know if I am digging to deep or if I am dull today? def.com states "to attribute or think of as belonging" so if I understand properly we are to look to God and see He has the glory and strength. another word for praise? Reply to this
January 29, 2008 10:18 AM
Rich wrote:
Mac - thanks for the honest comments. I got a little carried away with what I found to be a very interesting fresh approach to Revelation. Revelation has always scared and frustrated me. I have never actually read the entire book from beginning to end, mainly because I thought I was unable to understand it. But that cannot be true. Scriptures are not meant to confuse. If confusion exists, it is due to man misinterpreting the purpose of the scriptures.
Basically what I posted said much of what you said above to Rik. When Revelation was written, the church in the first century was undergoing intense persecution. People were being killed for what they believed, for being Christians. John was given a "revelation" and told to write the book to encourage christians to focus on heaven and the future battle that Jesus will win as they faced persecution at the time. The best way to get through a difficult situation/time is to focus on something better that you believe will happen in the future. It puts our current 'sufferings' in perspective. That is what Revelation was meant to do for the first century christians and churches.
Revelation was never meant to be a fortelling of specific events that allow us to see into or read the future. We are to read the book to be encouraged. We are to see a powerful and victorious Jesus. The battle to be fought will have ups and downs, but Jesus will win the war. That is a guarantee that we can bank on. Jesus is more powerful than Satan and Jesus will win. Knowing the Jesus will win, knowing that the war will turn out in our favor, makes it easier to keep fighting when we lose individual battles. As military guys, you should understand that better than the rest of us.
I read Revelation 1 to my son last night. He was amazed at the incredible description of Jesus - blazing fire eyes, feet like bronze glowing in a furnace, voice like sound of rushing water, out of mouth came a double edged sword. How totally incredible!!! That is exactly as should be.
However, he then asked me why people do not know when the earth will end - isn't it all foretold in Revelation? But this is the common man-imposed misinterpretation of the book. It is not meant to be read this way. It is NOT to give us a detailed guide of the end times. We miss the point of the book if we spend time looking for hidden meanings and secrets. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus says: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Unless Jesus is a liar, there should be no way for us to know when the end is coming. No 'careful' reading of Revelation will do that for us (or for anyone else). Read the book for its beautiful description of heaven and angels and the throne and let the book encourage us as we face the many trials that this life imposes on us. Reply to this
January 29, 2008 10:37 AM
Rich wrote:
Now, with this in mind, read Revelation 4. WOW!!! The throne of GOD. How incredible. I can only imagine a scene like this. It is like a scene from a movie.
For what it is worth, carnelian is a mineral that sometimes appears red or reddish brown. It can also sometimes appear as flesh color. According to Wikepedia, "It was used widely during Roman times 2,000 years before the present era to make signet or seal rings for imprinting a seal with wax on correspondence or other important documents." I do not know why John used that word, but it was obviously known to him. Japser is also a red mineral, often used for ornamentation. For some reason, God appeared to resemble these items. The rest is just pure fantasy and beauty. And all that surround the throne continuously praise God. That is what I take from Revelation 4. God is to be praised day and night. God is awesome. He is worthy to receive glory, honor and power. He is the awesome creator of the world. I have life, you have life, all around us has life because and only because of God. God is the author, he is the supreme. He created all and holds all together. God is so much more worthy and deserving of my praise. I think I am just going to spend the next many minutes praising God. I do not even know what to say, but I know that he deserves to be praised as he is being praised day and night by those around him to continuously say: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." Reply to this
January 29, 2008 1:51 PM
Sam wrote:
To Rik (ascribe). You got it. This word basically means to 'give credit' to someone. So when the Psalmist is telling us he ascribes to God, he is honoring Him. More specifically, if one ascribes to something, he/she believes in it and acts accordingly. I ascribe to the concept of 'learning by doing'. I am 'honoring' that concept by believing it is true, and then attempt to do that. The Army has an acronym, OJT, which means On the Job Training...a concept to which I ascribe. I also ascribe to God's Word (at least I TRY to every now and then). I try to honor his word by believing in it, and then attempting to follow it. I hope this helps a little. You basically have the concept down already, I just wanted to respond to you and expound on it slightly. Reply to this
Revelation 4. NIV titled, A Throne in Heaven. Okay, admittedly Rik, this is where this book starts getting a little 'weird'. But look BEYOND the strange images and take this short chapter as simply John's initial meeting with Jesus (as God) in Heaven. No matter what it looked like to him, it will probably appear differently to us. I don't even know what jasper and carnelian are! No, look at this as simply John's view of meeting Christ in the afterlife. Don't get hung up on the "24", or even the "7". Ignore all that and look at the chapter in general. What do we 'see'? A bunch of strange characters praising God, joined by a group of elders. Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing here in our "heaven on Earth"---God's Kingdom---the church? Certainly. Look around you. There are plenty of strange 'creatures' worshipping God (and several not doing so as well). As Christians, we may even appear to those 'other creatures' as strange. We certainly have 'strange ideas', some will say. But that is okay. Strange looking, weird acting, as we may be, we should be worhipping God for who He is. He is the creator of all things, as the elders said in this chapter. Some day we will all, I hope, get a chance to see this throne to which John refers. But in the meantime, look to our church as the throne of God here on earth. Because of His wondrous gifts He has let us have, our hearts should be turned to be like those creatures with eyes all over their bodies, and we should be thanking (worshipping) the God we know yet cannot yet see.
When we take this book for face value, a chunk at a time, it is not that daunting, nor that mysterious. I have terribly missed Tony's comments, as he had been getting pretty 'deep' lately. Please pray for him to be able to find the time and desire to put this blog in his life as a daily habit. Rich...a confession. I like reading your thoughts, confessions and comments...I am learning a lot about you and God. However, I fairly skimmed over the stuff you brought in from that site the other day. I KNOW it is good stuff, and if I had read it, I might have understood the chapter a bit better. BUT, I seem to grow closer to you through YOUR words and thoughts. Occasionally I will go to websites to get the thoughts of others on certain stuff, but other than putting in a quote or two, I preferred to write what "I" got from what they said. That way, I am letting you guys know what I learned, and passed it on to you in the Readers' Digest version (although I do get very verbose on occasion). Any, I look forward to seeing everybody's thoughts and comments, as they help me learn; they help me get to know you better; and they also help me to teach. And that is what we are supposed to be doing with the Word...teaching others. I don't know if any of you have contacted Socorro yet to let her know if you will be coming to my birthday party this Sunday or not, but if you haven't, please contact her so she can plan.
Reply to this
ps 29 "Ascribe"
I tried to understand this word in its text and I am having trouble. I do not know if I am digging to deep or if I am dull today? def.com states "to attribute or think of as belonging" so if I understand properly we are to look to God and see He has the glory and strength. another word for praise?
Reply to this
Mac - thanks for the honest comments. I got a little carried away with what I found to be a very interesting fresh approach to Revelation. Revelation has always scared and frustrated me. I have never actually read the entire book from beginning to end, mainly because I thought I was unable to understand it. But that cannot be true. Scriptures are not meant to confuse. If confusion exists, it is due to man misinterpreting the purpose of the scriptures.
Basically what I posted said much of what you said above to Rik. When Revelation was written, the church in the first century was undergoing intense persecution. People were being killed for what they believed, for being Christians. John was given a "revelation" and told to write the book to encourage christians to focus on heaven and the future battle that Jesus will win as they faced persecution at the time. The best way to get through a difficult situation/time is to focus on something better that you believe will happen in the future. It puts our current 'sufferings' in perspective. That is what Revelation was meant to do for the first century christians and churches.
Revelation was never meant to be a fortelling of specific events that allow us to see into or read the future. We are to read the book to be encouraged. We are to see a powerful and victorious Jesus. The battle to be fought will have ups and downs, but Jesus will win the war. That is a guarantee that we can bank on. Jesus is more powerful than Satan and Jesus will win. Knowing the Jesus will win, knowing that the war will turn out in our favor, makes it easier to keep fighting when we lose individual battles. As military guys, you should understand that better than the rest of us.
I read Revelation 1 to my son last night. He was amazed at the incredible description of Jesus - blazing fire eyes, feet like bronze glowing in a furnace, voice like sound of rushing water, out of mouth came a double edged sword. How totally incredible!!! That is exactly as should be.
However, he then asked me why people do not know when the earth will end - isn't it all foretold in Revelation? But this is the common man-imposed misinterpretation of the book. It is not meant to be read this way. It is NOT to give us a detailed guide of the end times. We miss the point of the book if we spend time looking for hidden meanings and secrets. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus says: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Unless Jesus is a liar, there should be no way for us to know when the end is coming. No 'careful' reading of Revelation will do that for us (or for anyone else). Read the book for its beautiful description of heaven and angels and the throne and let the book encourage us as we face the many trials that this life imposes on us.
Reply to this
Now, with this in mind, read Revelation 4. WOW!!! The throne of GOD. How incredible. I can only imagine a scene like this. It is like a scene from a movie.
For what it is worth, carnelian is a mineral that sometimes appears red or reddish brown. It can also sometimes appear as flesh color. According to Wikepedia, "It was used widely during Roman times 2,000 years before the present era to make signet or seal rings for imprinting a seal with wax on correspondence or other important documents." I do not know why John used that word, but it was obviously known to him. Japser is also a red mineral, often used for ornamentation. For some reason, God appeared to resemble these items. The rest is just pure fantasy and beauty. And all that surround the throne continuously praise God. That is what I take from Revelation 4. God is to be praised day and night. God is awesome. He is worthy to receive glory, honor and power. He is the awesome creator of the world. I have life, you have life, all around us has life because and only because of God. God is the author, he is the supreme. He created all and holds all together. God is so much more worthy and deserving of my praise. I think I am just going to spend the next many minutes praising God. I do not even know what to say, but I know that he deserves to be praised as he is being praised day and night by those around him to continuously say: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."
Reply to this
To Rik (ascribe). You got it. This word basically means to 'give credit' to someone. So when the Psalmist is telling us he ascribes to God, he is honoring Him. More specifically, if one ascribes to something, he/she believes in it and acts accordingly. I ascribe to the concept of 'learning by doing'. I am 'honoring' that concept by believing it is true, and then attempt to do that. The Army has an acronym, OJT, which means On the Job Training...a concept to which I ascribe. I also ascribe to God's Word (at least I TRY to every now and then). I try to honor his word by believing in it, and then attempting to follow it. I hope this helps a little. You basically have the concept down already, I just wanted to respond to you and expound on it slightly.
Reply to this